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Conflict in the Middle East

Is Israel on its way to being a "Failed State?"

345 replies

TooBigForMyBoots · 03/04/2024 01:01

Netanyahu is destroying Gaza.

The IDF is committing war crimes.
Netanyahu's government has angered, pissed off and disappointed Israeli citizens.
They have disappointed, pissed off and angered Israel's allies.
They are pissing off neighbour states.
The Israeli government and the IDF have created a broken nation of traumatised people.

Right next door.

I fear that Israel will become a failed state.Sad

OP posts:
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17
stomachamelon · 04/04/2024 22:40

@LemonyTicket I am impressed you have someone so 'interested' In you and your heritage.

PeasfullPerson · 04/04/2024 22:41

mids2019 · 04/04/2024 22:06

Right so Israel is not going to become a 'failed state' not is is it fragile.

We have a situation where I believe Benjamin Netanayahu is under significant political pressure internally (Israel is a democracy) and I think it is legitimate to speculate there may be an early election. I think there are questions Israelis are asking about how October 7th was allowed to happen and the current hostage situation (have they been foegotten?).

It is likely we will see a recalibrarion of the Israeli response to the October 7th attacks due to international pressure. It is likely Israel will still prosecute the war though there may be changes in tactics. I think Israel will have to be more transparent about its war aims and how the current military strategy is meant to achieve these aims.

There is a lot of talk about international law but international law is very much a complex beast and is actually reliant on sovereign nations recognising its existence. We await to see what advice individual states are given about the law by their lawyers. I am kind of guessing Hamas did not consult any of their lawyers before ordering the October 7th attacks and I am again kind of guessing holding and sexually assaulting hostages might break some kind of international law but who knows I am not a lawyer)

Israel long term will be safe, hopefully prosperous state that will be a home to the Jewsish people as well as others. There is no prospect of the international community viewing it as failed state such as Afghanistan. Israel will continue to be a liberal democracy surrounded by states wishing it's failure but I am sorry bit won't fail.

What impact do you think that Israel’s killing spree will have on its security and prosperity?

How do you think the international community currently view Israel?

mids2019 · 04/04/2024 22:42

https://www.gov.uk/world/living-in-israel

I was trying to find mention of Israel being a failed state of international pariah here but couldn't find that much.

Living in Israel - GOV.UK

Includes how to access healthcare, get a document legalised, lists of lawyers and how to vote abroad.

https://www.gov.uk/world/living-in-israel

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 22:43

stomachamelon · 04/04/2024 22:40

@LemonyTicket I am impressed you have someone so 'interested' In you and your heritage.

Thanks! I was today years old when I learned being from the Middle East isn't enough, I have to be brown enough to have an approved view :)

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 22:48

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AnnieSnap · 04/04/2024 22:51

mids2019 · 04/04/2024 22:16

@AnnieSnap

have a quick look at the BBC news website. They have an Israel Gaza war tab. (Really good analysis by Jeremy Bowen as well)

I’m aware that it’s called that (because Israel calls it a war). In reality it’s not a war though. The most powerful military in the world is bombing a small strip of land the the ground and slaughtering 10s of thousands of innocent civilians (most of whom are women and children) and preventing them from receiving water, food and medical supplies in response to terrorist actions by a terrorist group. That is not war!

Noicant · 04/04/2024 22:52

Noicant · 03/04/2024 06:29

No I don’t think so. A failed state is one in which institutions don’t work for it’s own people. A pariah state possibly but I doubt it’s institutions are so weak that it becomes a failed state. Afghanistan is a failed state for comparison.

I just want to clarify in this post I’m not suggesting Israel should be a pariah state, more that thats the way it may be treated by some other countries if there isn’t an end soon.

MyNameIsFine · 04/04/2024 23:00

quantumbutterfly · 04/04/2024 21:34

This does not give a clue to skin tone, is there some sort of Dulux chart you're consulting?

😂

statsfun · 04/04/2024 23:15

AnnieSnap · 04/04/2024 22:51

I’m aware that it’s called that (because Israel calls it a war). In reality it’s not a war though. The most powerful military in the world is bombing a small strip of land the the ground and slaughtering 10s of thousands of innocent civilians (most of whom are women and children) and preventing them from receiving water, food and medical supplies in response to terrorist actions by a terrorist group. That is not war!

Israel is at war with Hamas.

1.Hamas were elected in 2005. There was quite a lot of bloodshed - and elections have been suspended since then - but that's hardly unique in the world. A government certainly doesn't have to be fairly and democratically elected to be a government.

2.Hamas administer Gaza, eg police and hospitals

3.Hamas have an army. At the start of the war they had 30,000 fighters, organised by area into five brigades, consisting in total of 24 battalions and approx 140 companies. They have fewer now.

4.Hamas still launch missiles at Israel daily, and engage with IDF soldiers in firefights.

Gaza isn't recognised as a country. But lots of countries didn't recognise Israel either until the last few years. Were all the military attacks by the Arab countries before they recognised Israel (eg 1948 and 1967) not wars either? Or is it only when Israel is the stronger side that it isn't a war?

(Incidentally, even civil wars are still wars, where only one country is involved. Not that this is a civil war, since Gaza is not part of Israel)

stomachamelon · 04/04/2024 23:31

@PeasfullPerson that article is three months old. I am unsure what tenuous link you are trying hard to get to.... or what part of the thread you are trying to integrate yourself into?

AnnieSnap · 04/04/2024 23:38

statsfun · 04/04/2024 23:15

Israel is at war with Hamas.

1.Hamas were elected in 2005. There was quite a lot of bloodshed - and elections have been suspended since then - but that's hardly unique in the world. A government certainly doesn't have to be fairly and democratically elected to be a government.

2.Hamas administer Gaza, eg police and hospitals

3.Hamas have an army. At the start of the war they had 30,000 fighters, organised by area into five brigades, consisting in total of 24 battalions and approx 140 companies. They have fewer now.

4.Hamas still launch missiles at Israel daily, and engage with IDF soldiers in firefights.

Gaza isn't recognised as a country. But lots of countries didn't recognise Israel either until the last few years. Were all the military attacks by the Arab countries before they recognised Israel (eg 1948 and 1967) not wars either? Or is it only when Israel is the stronger side that it isn't a war?

(Incidentally, even civil wars are still wars, where only one country is involved. Not that this is a civil war, since Gaza is not part of Israel)

Genocide isn’t war

mids2019 · 04/04/2024 23:59

@statsfun

Makes sense. This is a war.

There has been no legal judgment on actual genocide in Gaza and genocide is an extremely charged term and everyone knows it. The notion that there may be some threat of genocide is basically trying to frame from some that there has been an excessive impact on the civilian population during a war and is way to get and get Israel to change its military tactics.

I really do object to the word genocide being used in conjunction with this war because thougn everyone accepts there has been a large civilian death toll genocide implies a systemic and determined way to eradicate a people on a very personal level and not necessarily in the context of war. This happened in Nazi Germany so I really think we have to be careful in every way of the word here.

Who I is meant to be commiting the genocide? Has the Israeli cabinet ordered the OFF to kill all Gazans on sight? Is the IDF executing Gazans en masse? Are the Israeli people cheering on such an alleged atrocity? No.

If there was really a genocide most nations would cut ties with Israel immediately, expelling ambassadors, and imposing massive sanctions if not militarily acting to prevent it.

This is what not genocide.

mids2019 · 05/04/2024 00:00

War above

TextureSeeker · 05/04/2024 00:06

mids2019 · 04/04/2024 23:59

@statsfun

Makes sense. This is a war.

There has been no legal judgment on actual genocide in Gaza and genocide is an extremely charged term and everyone knows it. The notion that there may be some threat of genocide is basically trying to frame from some that there has been an excessive impact on the civilian population during a war and is way to get and get Israel to change its military tactics.

I really do object to the word genocide being used in conjunction with this war because thougn everyone accepts there has been a large civilian death toll genocide implies a systemic and determined way to eradicate a people on a very personal level and not necessarily in the context of war. This happened in Nazi Germany so I really think we have to be careful in every way of the word here.

Who I is meant to be commiting the genocide? Has the Israeli cabinet ordered the OFF to kill all Gazans on sight? Is the IDF executing Gazans en masse? Are the Israeli people cheering on such an alleged atrocity? No.

If there was really a genocide most nations would cut ties with Israel immediately, expelling ambassadors, and imposing massive sanctions if not militarily acting to prevent it.

This is what not genocide.

It's a good job nobody cares about your objections then isn't it. The ICJ found it plausible that Israel's acts could amount to genocide and without doubt they are far more qualified than you are.

mollyfolk · 05/04/2024 02:43

mids2019 · 04/04/2024 23:59

@statsfun

Makes sense. This is a war.

There has been no legal judgment on actual genocide in Gaza and genocide is an extremely charged term and everyone knows it. The notion that there may be some threat of genocide is basically trying to frame from some that there has been an excessive impact on the civilian population during a war and is way to get and get Israel to change its military tactics.

I really do object to the word genocide being used in conjunction with this war because thougn everyone accepts there has been a large civilian death toll genocide implies a systemic and determined way to eradicate a people on a very personal level and not necessarily in the context of war. This happened in Nazi Germany so I really think we have to be careful in every way of the word here.

Who I is meant to be commiting the genocide? Has the Israeli cabinet ordered the OFF to kill all Gazans on sight? Is the IDF executing Gazans en masse? Are the Israeli people cheering on such an alleged atrocity? No.

If there was really a genocide most nations would cut ties with Israel immediately, expelling ambassadors, and imposing massive sanctions if not militarily acting to prevent it.

This is what not genocide.

If only it were so simple and lovely. Unfortunately the US will continue to support Israel - even if Israel are on a path to ethnic cleansing and genocide because they are strategically important .

MCOut · 05/04/2024 05:21

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LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 08:04

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MCOut · 05/04/2024 08:32

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quantumbutterfly · 05/04/2024 08:41

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Are you the tooting popular front mcout?

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 08:56

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Jewish people, specifically the ones in European diaspora, were murdered in their millions for NOT BEING WHITE.

Thousands of years in many cases of living in Europe, STILL didn't make them white.

The ones who never left the Middle East, regardless of the colour of their faces, are also not "white".

They remain the most common targets of neo Nazis around the globe, who STILL march chanting "The Jews will not replace us"

They are the most famous victims of white supremacists, perhaps in history. The Klu Klux clan, as evil and disgusting as they were, didn't quite pull off exterminating 6 million Black people.

They were simultaneously the victims of extreme racism in the levant, persia, the middle east and north africa. Where, for example, they were routinely murdered, exiled or forced to wear yellow stars.

To this day, the majority of inhabitants of the MENA region hold anti Jewish beliefs, and racism against Jews is rife. There are entire groups, organisations or even government ls with actual flags or charters calling for the death of Jews.

Moreover, Jews, who come in all colours as do all indigenous people of the levant and Persia, generally did not experience racism on the basis of their skin colour. Hitler didn't hold up your Dulux paint chart when deciding who went in the gas chamber.

They are racially stigmatised physically, with characatures of beady eyes, hooked noses, curly hair and so on. As well as being racially stigmatised with numerous racist stereotypes unrelated to their physical appearance.

Certain moronic racists, for example, might be so prejudiced against Jews, that they go on the Internet claiming a Mizrahi Jew, a native Arabic speaker with Iraqi, Egyptian and Lebanese parents is "European" and a "white supremacist".

Because it fits nicely with an agenda that portrays histories most famous victims of white (and indeed other) supremacists as themselves being the "white supremacists", despite not being white, and despite being, very famously, murdered in their millions for not being so.

It's hard holding back from a personal attack when faced with such ignorance, particularly off the back of you haranguing me for my skin colour to meet your agenda of behaving like a racist and feeling like its all right to do so if a Jew is white enough for you to get away with it, but suffice to say, an antisemitism training course wouldn't do you any harm.

Sussurations · 05/04/2024 09:04

@MCOut your unedifying posts really do underline the continuing thread of antisemitism. It’s currently fashionable to decry white colonialism, therefore in your mind Jews must be white colonisers.

100 years ago you would most certainly have been saying that Jews weren’t white.

A few hundred years before that you’d have been saying they killed Christ.

Same old same old

LemonyTicket is a heroine for putting up with your bs with such remarkable patience.

MCOut · 05/04/2024 09:05

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 08:56

Jewish people, specifically the ones in European diaspora, were murdered in their millions for NOT BEING WHITE.

Thousands of years in many cases of living in Europe, STILL didn't make them white.

The ones who never left the Middle East, regardless of the colour of their faces, are also not "white".

They remain the most common targets of neo Nazis around the globe, who STILL march chanting "The Jews will not replace us"

They are the most famous victims of white supremacists, perhaps in history. The Klu Klux clan, as evil and disgusting as they were, didn't quite pull off exterminating 6 million Black people.

They were simultaneously the victims of extreme racism in the levant, persia, the middle east and north africa. Where, for example, they were routinely murdered, exiled or forced to wear yellow stars.

To this day, the majority of inhabitants of the MENA region hold anti Jewish beliefs, and racism against Jews is rife. There are entire groups, organisations or even government ls with actual flags or charters calling for the death of Jews.

Moreover, Jews, who come in all colours as do all indigenous people of the levant and Persia, generally did not experience racism on the basis of their skin colour. Hitler didn't hold up your Dulux paint chart when deciding who went in the gas chamber.

They are racially stigmatised physically, with characatures of beady eyes, hooked noses, curly hair and so on. As well as being racially stigmatised with numerous racist stereotypes unrelated to their physical appearance.

Certain moronic racists, for example, might be so prejudiced against Jews, that they go on the Internet claiming a Mizrahi Jew, a native Arabic speaker with Iraqi, Egyptian and Lebanese parents is "European" and a "white supremacist".

Because it fits nicely with an agenda that portrays histories most famous victims of white (and indeed other) supremacists as themselves being the "white supremacists", despite not being white, and despite being, very famously, murdered in their millions for not being so.

It's hard holding back from a personal attack when faced with such ignorance, particularly off the back of you haranguing me for my skin colour to meet your agenda of behaving like a racist and feeling like its all right to do so if a Jew is white enough for you to get away with it, but suffice to say, an antisemitism training course wouldn't do you any harm.

Listen, I am done with you now. I’m not disputing that you face antisemitism, I’m not disputing that a lot of the above is true. But in the mainstream you will be considered more palatable than other Middle Easterns.

When you get on here and decide to portray them and their countries as backwards in defensive of Israel, you are participating in exactly the same behaviour that it is inescapably clear that you do not appreciate being done to you.

MCOut · 05/04/2024 09:12

Sussurations · 05/04/2024 09:04

@MCOut your unedifying posts really do underline the continuing thread of antisemitism. It’s currently fashionable to decry white colonialism, therefore in your mind Jews must be white colonisers.

100 years ago you would most certainly have been saying that Jews weren’t white.

A few hundred years before that you’d have been saying they killed Christ.

Same old same old

LemonyTicket is a heroine for putting up with your bs with such remarkable patience.

Err no sorry. Where I am from a 100 years ago Jewish people were very much considered white including those of Middle eastern ancestry, especially when considering their general interactions with mine and decrying colonialism wasn’t a fashion, it was a necessity. But as I said I’m done now.

PeasfullPerson · 05/04/2024 09:16

stomachamelon · 04/04/2024 23:31

@PeasfullPerson that article is three months old. I am unsure what tenuous link you are trying hard to get to.... or what part of the thread you are trying to integrate yourself into?

Thanks for asking, I shall explain why I posted it.

3 months ago 153 countries believed that Israel were in the wrong.

Many more crimes have been committed by Israel since then and support has decreased even further.

This is a sign of failure, and a sign that Israel has made itself less safe.