Forensic Al Jazeera investigation into October 7th

[Finallyloggedin]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/21/october-7-forensic-analysis-shows-hamas-abuses-many-false-israeli-claims

This is well worth a watch. It gives context to the Israel/Hamas conflict. Certainly doesn’t paint Hamas in a favourable light, I don’t think. Goes into chilling details of many terrible atrocities committed by Hamas. It Also disproves some of the allegations made by the Israeli government and repeatedly referred to by journalists and politicians around the world.

Also raises many questions on how October 7th ever happened…

I would agree with @ConnieCounter on this.

Yeah he lost me at
The IDF are the most humane army that has ever existed in living memory

https://www.news18.com/world/video-father-son-hamas-duo-nonchalantly-describe-taking-turns-in-raping-israeli-woman-then-killing-her-8902139.html

That's sick. People openly posting those sick accounts, gleefully denying rape. On mumsnet. It's sick.

This documentary was produced by a network funded by the government of Qatar where the leaders of Hamas live.

I mean the Pro-Palestinian posters heap scorn on The Daily Mail and Telegraph - well this is really the pot calling the kettle black.

Thread and post not created with good intentions.

This 100 %. A thread about the Hamas atrocities from the POV of a Hamas supporting network.

You couldn't make it up.

Yes completely inappropriate thread for this. Many other threads to post this is in.

For the record, I don't think Palestinians are being dehumanised at all on MN - I certainly have not seen any posts that do this. All lives are equal in value. It is Hamas that are dehumanising their poor citizens by using them as human shields and starting a war.

If you think it's the wrong thread why are you regurgitating this post from two months ago and giving it prominence again?

Also, to suggest that Palestinians aren't being dehumunised on Mumsnet either means you're not reading very many threads on the Conflict In the Middle East board or you're part of the problem.

@ConnieCounter
If you think it's the wrong thread why are you regurgitating this post from two months ago and giving it prominence again?
1.) I will post what I like as long as it is in within the MN talk guidelines. Plus this thread was bumped by recent posts and I have just seen it. I can give prominence to anything that I like. You are not the thread police.

2.)Also, to suggest that Palestinians aren't being dehumunised on Mumsnet either means you're not reading very many threads on the Conflict In the Middle East board or you're part of the problem.

I disagree entirely - care to point me to the evidence for your assertions?
And don't you dare accuse me of being part of the problem when it is Hamas that is the problem.

Excuse me, why is it "foolish" to quote something that I just found?

Who do you think you are?

Do you realise that you come across as offensive and inflammatory?

I thought it might help to also add an Israeli newspaper’s view as sometimes people feel wary of Al Jazeera.

Without diminishing undoubted Hamas atrocities this from Haaretz tries to sift through all the information about what was reported and spread about Oct 7 in the aftermath.

Hamas committed documented atrocities but a few false stories feed the deniers.

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2023.12.20-010209/www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-04/ty-article-magazine/.premium/hamas-committed-documented-atrocities-but-a-few-false-stories-feed-the-deniers/0000018c-34f3-da74-afce-b5fbe24f0000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.ph/2023.12.20-010209/www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-04/ty-article-magazine/.premium/hamas-committed-documented-atrocities-but-a-few-false-stories-feed-the-deniers/0000018c-34f3-da74-afce-b5fbe24f0000

Put the headline into archive ph if the link does not work.

I am sorry I cannot get it to work, but found it through archive ph.

That's not really the same as the "stories of rapes have been disproved" stuff that OP and their twitter friends are trying to peddle though.

@keenforhelp There is a Haaretz (Israeli) investigative article from December 2023:

Hamas Committed Documented Atrocities. But a Few False Stories Feed the Deniers

Without seeking to diminish the Hamas atrocities on Oct 7, it does aim
to discover what actually happened, and what were some stories which spread following Oct 7 which turned out to be untrue.

You need to put the headline into archive ph to find it, as I cannot get it to link.

The Haaretz article is worth reading because it is measured. While certain stories after Oct 7 regarding the massacre turned out to be a sort of Chinese Whispers, and something Netnyahu told Biden not exactly true, it does not at all hide from citing the atrocities which were committed by Hamas, including that they raped.

It is more a dissection of some specific widely rumoured reports.

Examples: the article investigates as untrue, or lost in translation, all the burnt or beheaded babies story ( but people were burnt in their houses, children were killed, bodies especially of soldiers were desecrated), and the pregnant woman with the foetus cut out.

In a way Hasretz’s very detailed analysis makes the actual Hamas atrocities come into even clearer, sharper focus.

@Finallyloggedin Finallyloggedin · Today 20:24
Re your post

Unfortunately, I think anyone reading should be careful about this. Though not untrue as such, it is misleading in that it really ‘throws out the baby with the bathwater’ when removed in this way from the whole context - which is one in which there are most certainly corroborated, credible witness accounts and other evidence of many rapes.

Look at this excellent, exhaustive and analytical account from Haaretz below which covers everything regarding this subject, and the reports and counter reports since Oct 7 in a way nothing else I have seen written has.

Having just stumbled on it tonight, I now consider that that Times article posted on one of these threads a week or so ago gives rather too limited sense of the evidence - though it never said no rape happened - and so do those concentrating only on debunking some individual, mistaken accounts, even if that is important too.

This article is very long, so I will not copy and past it all. But you can paste the headline into archive ph. (See image)

(Warning: upsetting and graphic accounts.)

On the archive ph page you paste the headline in the lower of the two boxes.

This Haaretz article goes through all the evidence of rapes, any mistaken evidence, the media reports and counter-reports, and the misuse for propaganda etc to give an impressive and extensive measured analysis. This is an article to believe imo.

15 Witnesses, Three Confessions, a Pattern of Naked Dead Bodies. All the Evidence of Hamas Rape on October 7

Hamas' acts of rape on October 7 have turned into one of the massacre's most contentious topics. Each testimony and detail that emerges is weaponized in the clash between Israel's supporters and its opponents. Now, based on conversations with dozens of sources, a Haaretz investigation delineates which proof exists for sex crimes committed by Hamas – and what is missing

Liza Rozovsky
April 18 2024

@Finallyloggedin the link didn’t work for me, but assuming you copied over the text - the person on x ‘’debunking rape propaganda’ is looking at this with a jaundiced and hostile view, to say the least

‘Zaka cult’ - Zaka is anything but a cult. They do the worst job in the world, cleaning up bodies and body parts from the aftermath of terror attacks, to give the people Jewish burial, hugely important in Jewish culture. They had never faced anything on this scale before. mistakes were certainly made, but I do not think the zaka members deserve the level of vitriol they have come in for from this x post. The times of Israel does not hold back in their criticism, for example, but does not demonise these men. Please consider the context of the scenes they faced 🙏

desperately defends his credibility, and says he just made an honest mistake because he was "traumatised “ why is traumatised in scare quotes? Is it not possible that when faced with these scenes of horror, he was traumatised and there was actually no malicious intent in his reporting what he believed to be true?

depraved scumbag has been touring around the world on behalf of the Israeli regime with his rape hoax lies, and again is prominently featured in the Sandberg hoax documentary…
proven fraud huckster grifter's deranged propaganda lies
this language is extreme, dehumanising, and it seems to me this x post is an example of the very propaganda it is claiming to be calling out.

the mistakes should certainly be called out, but for me personally the aggressive nature of the x post immediately puts me off engaging with the content of what was written.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-2-debunked-accounts-from-zaka-workers-fueled-global-skepticism-of-oct-7-rape/amp/

Oh good. You've bumped your rape denial thread again to post some bile from yet another pro-Hamas pro-October 7th scumbag on x.

@EllaDisenchanted and @ScrollingLeaves thank you very much for your replies, I will read the links you post asap.

@EllaDisenchanted i do appreciate what you are saying about the tone. I can see that it is off putting. I guess the author talks so derogatorily about Otmazagim mainly due to him fabricating lies regarding “bodies with nails and knives…” as it’s hard to see how this is innocently imagined. However, I definitely can see that the wider organisation should not be tarred with the same brush. Apologies for the offence with this.

I was just wondering @EllaDisenchanted , have the revelations about him posing as a lawyer been widely reported there?

Thank you both.

If there are some widely spread accounts about certain occurrences of rape or other atrocities which turned out to not be true, or which were based on misunderstanding evidence, then these ought to be refuted or explained.

The problem is when this is expanded to deny any rape happened at all, or to suggest it did not - which is not true.

Many many horrible rapes certainly happened

It really is worth looking up and reading that Haaretz article heading in archive ph in order to understand just how the investigations and reports unfolded in the midst extraordinary difficulty, and to see how while there were some misunderstandings, and also some using rape as propaganda, and some forensic evidence was lost - many many horrible rapes happened.

I can see two accounts have been proven false, but I can’t see that the sharp object story has been debunked by a reliable source. It sounds like in the times of Israel article that there was photo evidence of that, although I’ve obviously not seen it (thank Gd), and pictures can of course be misinterpreted. Otmazgin said he publicly corrected himself after discovering what had transpired, including to the UN investigators he met. He showed the investigators — and later an AP reporter — photos and video, including one of a deceased woman who had a blood-speckled, flesh-colored bulb in her genital area, as well as several bodies of women with blood near their genitals and another who appeared to have small sharp objects protruding from her upper thigh and above her genitals.

tbh I don’t have the stomach to go looking into that in detail to investigate more. It’s possible it was untrue, but as some bodies were booby trapped, I wouldn’t put it past the terrorists. (https://nypost.com/2023/10/17/hamas-killed-mom-in-front-of-her-two-young-boys-booby-trapped-her-body/)

I haven’t seen anything in the news about him posing as a lawyer. Definitely not something the news would hide. They didn’t cover up for the founder of Zaka when he was exposed as a sex offender, and it was all over the news.

Very much agree. It’s not surprising misinformation spread rapidly in the aftermath; the country was in utter chaos and turmoil, in the first few days particularly, certain kibbutzim were still in the control of terrorists, and many terrorists who had infiltrated were at large, and not yet found, and no one really knew what was going on, how many hostages had been taken, the numbers of dead was rising hourly. Men were leaving right left and center to go fight down south, and there was ongoing rocket fire. In that sort of fertile ground, misinformation spreads fast.

it’s important that the record is corrected, but this is why I don’t think it’s fair to assume it was on the whole deliberate nefarious propaganda

I’m sorry, I haven’t been able to read the articles yet but am still planning to.

I just saw this which I thought I’d share though, as I think it’s the AP article which was referred to.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-sexual-violence-zaka-ca7905bf9520b1e646f86d72cdf03244