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Conflict in the Middle East

Forensic Al Jazeera investigation into October 7th

151 replies

Finallyloggedin · 22/03/2024 18:54

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/21/october-7-forensic-analysis-shows-hamas-abuses-many-false-israeli-claims

This is well worth a watch. It gives context to the Israel/Hamas conflict. Certainly doesn’t paint Hamas in a favourable light, I don’t think. Goes into chilling details of many terrible atrocities committed by Hamas. It Also disproves some of the allegations made by the Israeli government and repeatedly referred to by journalists and politicians around the world.

Also raises many questions on how October 7th ever happened…

October 7: Forensic analysis shows Hamas abuses, many false Israeli claims

Investigation draws up a list of those killed but also finds certain claims repeated by Israeli politicians untrue.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/21/october-7-forensic-analysis-shows-hamas-abuses-many-false-israeli-claims

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ScrollingLeaves · 21/06/2024 15:29

Finallyloggedin · 21/06/2024 13:05

I’m sorry, I haven’t been able to read the articles yet but am still planning to.

I just saw this which I thought I’d share though, as I think it’s the AP article which was referred to.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-sexual-violence-zaka-ca7905bf9520b1e646f86d72cdf03244

This AP report is measured and
balanced about mistakes and misunderstandings, and also makes clear that the existence of rape was true, even while it explains that some unfounded, or later discounted, accounts were misused.

The April Haaretz analysis (I posted the headline earlier so people can look it up) brings up these points too, but also explains the detail of eye and ear witnesses of sexual assaults, and states that some survivors of sexual assault have approached treatment centres.

(There was no bodycam evidence found.)

This is what Haaretz says about the nails story:

Otmazgin testified before the UN team and presented his findings. It was concluded that evidence in this regard could not be verified because of the paucity of visual proof and the poor quality of the photographs that were shown to the team. Otmazgin showed several of the photographs in his possession to Haaretz, including the one said to show nails having been inserted into the groin. The photograph was taken almost a week after the massacre and is definitely of poor quality. The possibility that what is depicted is indeed nails seems reasonable, certainly in combination with his testimony, but it's impossible to determine this unequivocally.

There was no evidence found of direct Hamas orders to rape having been issued,

The denial campaigns are also fueled by irresponsible remarks made by senior Israeli officials and representatives. One such comment, which was repeated on various occasions, was that the Hamas terrorists received explicit orders from those who dispatched them to rape their victims. "The sex crimes were planned in advance," Israel's UN ambassador, Gilad Erdan, asserted in December.

That assertion also found its way into The Washington Post – via Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. An article from November contains a quote by Gallant, who said that Israel knows from interrogations that Hamas' plans for the October 7 attacks also included detailed instructions on "which commander should rape which [Israeli] soldiers in different places."

A spokeswoman for Gallant told Haaretz that the quote had been distorted and that Gallant had never said that. The quote was indeed removed from the online version shortly after publication, but an editor's note explains that the deletion was made it was published without permission – meaning it had been said off the record.^The incident didn't escape The GrayZone, a
a site associated with the radical left in the United States, which termed the quote "outlandish."^

However, contrary to what Erdan and Gallant did or did not say, a check by Haaretz among a number of security bodies shows that, as of now, Israel has no proof that the terrorists of Hamas or other organizations received explicit orders to commit acts of rape.

As for a trial, in spite of this, Haaretz includes:

In a trial," Ben-Or, who is also a member of Dinah Project 7/10, explained, "there is a doctrine of collateral accountability of partners. When you enter into a 'project' to commit a certain offense, and other offenses were committed which you anticipated or could have anticipated, then you are accountable for them – even if there was no prior directive.

Both AP and Haaretz are writing about the U.N. report. but Haaretz is also including conclusions drawn from the
Association of Rape Crisis Centre’s investigation, which it explains takes a less cautious approach, drawing more definite conclusions.

This difference would explain the more reticent AP and Times articles which were probably based on just the more cautious U.N. report.

From Patten’s U.N. report,

Indeed, in her conclusions, Patten referred to irresponsible behavior by politicians, activists and journalists in regard to the sexual assaults. She urged that sensational headlines and media pressure be avoided, that the victims' identities not be made public and that the sexual violence should not be exploited for political purposes. In other words, she enumerated all the sins that were committed in this context over the past six months.

And Haaretz ends with these moving words of a woman, who had helped identify bodies murdered in a kibbutz after Oct 7, whom they interviewed for the article,

To find bodies in their home is an invasion of privacy," she said. "To find bodies in their beds is an invasion of privacy. It's to enter into people's most private place. I saw bodies in the bathroom, too. Some were in a condition that made identification impossible. I found bodies of men and women who were not dressed in a natural way, with clothing pulled down. Did terrorists do that? I don't know, I wasn't there.

"But sexual assault is not only whether someone was raped or committed an act of sodomy. People who were touched physically – were touched. We lost our privacy, our homes were violated and our souls, too. I don't see any of that in the discourse."

N.B. The Haaretz report is very long. These quotes I have added here in no way do justice to the wide range of the article and a huge amount of information.

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