Please do all you can to object to the genocide of Palestinians (Thread 2)

[EasterIssland]

Hi just realised that the other thread has reached max comments so opening this new one. Hope the other threads op doesn’t mind.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4947625-please-do-all-you-can-to-object-to-the-genocide-of-palestinians

That’s just the ones killed.
Many more mutilated, orphaned, bereaved and severely traumatised.

Unfathomable.

And missing under rubble

Yes, the damage done exceeds what has been done to their bodies and their homes. It will last generations.

75 years of generational trauma and counting.

No, they are not! Or, if they are, they are so terrifyingly incompetent that they should be immediately disarmed and put under UN supervision until tangible improvement can be demonstrated!

I went ahead and crunched a few numbers ... because that happens to be what - among other things - I do for a living!

Here they are! General conclusion:

• Even if you are being generous to Israel (a.k.a. "assuming a generally "lower end of the claims and slightly rounded up figure for "civilian deaths", you end up at at figure of ~64% of all 7 October fatalities being civilian.
• Even if you end up being "brutal" towards Palestinians - assuming that a) 10% of all women and children killed were, in fact, combattants - and some 80% of all men killed were, too - you[ll still end up with a ~67% civilian casualty rate.
• Obviously, if you adjust your assumptions (e.g. adjusting for the arguably underestimated Palestinian death toll - which does not include either those still buried under the rubble or "non-immediate" deaths such as those resulting from injury or - even more indirectly - from situations such as "diabetic - technically died of diabetes (but: only due to the inability to access medication) the proportions will shift. I am not even going to attempt this exercise! This is not my job!
• Once more, in the spirit of being "generous to Israel" I have completely disregarded dead soldiers - proportionally, those would shift the "civilian death toll" down.
• I have also completely ignored the West Bank.

Suffice to say ... even taking very generous assumptions, the civilian deaths on 7 October are proportionally about as significant than those of Gazans - probably more (but, again, conservative estimates taken on purpose).

See rough calculation below ...

... and, for the record, no, this is not meant to be some "definitive calculation". It is a "rough model" - the sort of thing I would construct at work in order to have a plausible case to waste "expert hours" on in order to refine further.

Now, do you condemn the IDF, who are, literally, plausibly "worse than Hamas" in terms of "doing their best" not to harm civilians?

... by the way: no idea what MN sets as a rule for "can no longer edit a post" but: the assumption for 2/3 fatalities are women and children is based on "widely reported as such" - it also, roughly, tallies with demographics as in some 40-50% of Gazans are children (and, an operating assumption that the other half are roughly 50/50).

Isreal you have to live with your actions for the rest of your lives, a large chapter in your young history. The world is watching even if they aren't doing anything about it. I'm not sure this will have your lives and country more secure long term. Yes you will have conquered the West Bank and will have the extra land, but the blood will never wash way.

Israel is dropping U.N. targeted missiles that cannot avoid killing large numbers of civilians and it is hitting key civilian infrastructure to the point where the population is being deprived of the basic necessities of life- clean water, shelter, food, medical care. As well as this, we have repeatedly seen forced transfer, often to areas less safe than the areas from where people were transferred. The long term consequences of maiming and killing so many people are foreseeable. Crimes against humanity have taken place that are punishable genocidal acts so the ICJ just has to determine if genocidal intent can be inferred.

Israel argues that its actions are not being done with genocidal intent but it must reasonably know the likely consequences of its actions. Inference of intent by deed can be taken and therefore Israel should be convicted of genocide in due course.

Israel’s actions are not justified on the basis of self defence and its closest allies have repeatedly indicated that another approach is feasible in dealing with Hamas. It was not therefore forced to take this course.

The 7/10 atrocities would be unlikely to meet the substantiality requirements for genocide because the number of people involved is not sufficient to endanger the overall survival of Israel as well as some other technical reasons. Some posters here have referred to 7/10 as a pogram, but that probably doesn’t convey the horror sufficiently.

Really?

What 75 years?

So when Palestinians were under the control of Egypt and/or Jordan for 20 years they were traumatised?

Why not take that up with Egypt/Jordan?

Tell that to Hamas who are using their people as 'human shields' and 'bargaining chips'.

https://charlotteclymer.substack.com/p/hamas-does-not-care-about-palestinians

The figures speak volumes

The number will no doubt be higher now

Hamas have stated their intention of committing genocide. They're the ones you should be targetting.
They started this war in order to try to achieve that, Israel is defending itself and warns civilians before bombing.
Your argument about Israel committing genocide is therefore completely disproved.Since you make no reference to the Israeli hostages can I assume that the rape, torture, murder and kidnapping of civilians is of no interest you you?

@anotherfatyorkie when you see someone behaving in a sh*tty way, you probably don't take that as a green light to behave equally badly.

The same applies internationally.

Human rights aren't a race to the bottom. There are internationally recognised standards for conduct and it is a country's individual responsibility to strive to meet these.

"But the other kid did it" isn't accepted as an excuse in school. It shouldn't be a valid excuse in politics and war either.

Whether I care about the lives of innocent people isn't conditional upon whether someone else does.

@sunick the 'warnings' are laughable. Repeated displacement and then bombing 'safe zones'. The bombings are almost certainly unnecessary on this scale. The executions of civilians may well constitute war crimes. There is a big difference between self-defence and destruction of a population and their home, and plenty of alternatives to the current strategy.

Stating your opinion without backing it up with facts is just that, an opinion.
Let's look at your post:
Hamas have stated their intention of committing genocide.
Indeed. The Israeli government has also stated the same intention, quite openly, too. For example, Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter referred to the ongoing conflict as “Gaza’s Nakba, another stated that Gaza should be erased and so on.
Israel is defending itself and warns civilians before bombing.
They do warn civilians and asked them to leave but then promptly bomb the "safe areas". Nowhere is safe in Gaza.
Your argument about Israel committing genocide is therefore completely disproved.
I don't think you understand how to construct a counter argument. See my first point.
Since you make no reference to the Israeli hostages can I assume that the rape, torture, murder and kidnapping of civilians is of no interest you you?
Never assume anything because, as the saying goes, it makes an ass of you and me.

Hams' founding document states their intent and they have repeated their intention frequently since 7.10.
The Israeli government have never stated that their intention is to commit genocide. That's a vile lie, furthermore it is clearly ridiculous given the fact that the Israelis warn civilians before bombing to suggest that is their intention.
Hamas committed the most appalling war crimes against civilians, they've fired thousands of rockets into Israel since 7.10 and they are refusing to release the hostages they've taken. They can end this war whenever they want.
How astonishing that you choose to ignore the reality of this war and target Israel.
And condone the ongoing rape of Israeli hostages by your refusal to consider them.

No other country to my knowledge has warned civilians about bombing whilst engaged in a war.
Unlike Hamas Israel are doing their best to minimise casualties.
Why not direct your protests at Hamas who bear the full responsibility for this war?

This is the last time I will engage with you as I feel it is a waste of my time as you refuse to acknowledge the blatant evidence/facts presented to you.
I despair that people still ignore what cannot be ignored.

@sunick it looks like you're new to this board as you are repeating insults, accusations and questions that have already been asked and answered a thousand times already on this board. May I suggest you take some time to go through them and stop wasting peoples time answering the same questions and accusations time and time again.

There's no point engaging with the "but Hamassss" people.

Nowhere is safe ~ including the so-called safe zones.

Agreed. I would say it is simply to try to derail but there is zero point in responding as it never goes anywhere constructive at all.