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Conflict in the Middle East
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123
Auvergne63 · 05/02/2024 17:21

anotherfatyorkie · 05/02/2024 16:42

What reputable source would you like?

The one you deem reputable, of course.
Anyway, this is a thread about the genocide of Palestinians. Do you object to it?

Auvergne63 · 05/02/2024 17:29

Sachaski · 05/02/2024 16:48

Well they have....this whole mess is the fault of Hamas. They can't be left in control of Gaza, Israel has no choice but to take them out, and unfortunately they have based themselves deliberately in civilian populations which makes casualties high. It's horrific.

They started it.
They make us do it.
Hamas is hiding behind civilians.
You are anti semitic if you say that.
It isn't a genocide because I say so.
What about other Arab ( meaning Muslim) countries taking them in? I don't see them doing that.
It's very sad or horrific but Hamas...
And I could go on.

EasterIssland · 05/02/2024 17:37

Can we please ignore those trying to derail it ? We know many will reject this idea. Let’s stick as to why icj thinks there might be a genocide happening atm.

thank you

OP posts:
anotherfatyorkie · 05/02/2024 17:40

@BackandForthRoundandRound What about all of the history prior to October?

Oh yeah, when the Arabs turned down a 2-State Solution 5 times?

In 1937,1939,1947 & 1979

In addition 1948 to 1967, Israel did not control the West Bank. The Palestinians could have demanded an independent state from the Jordanians. On the contrary whilst Jordan was in control Arafat said there was no longer a claim as it was no longer part of Palestine.
Once it was back in Israeli hands it miraculously became disputed land again!😃

This is one of many reasons Jews and Israelis are cynical.

anotherfatyorkie · 05/02/2024 17:44

EasterIssland · 05/02/2024 17:37

Can we please ignore those trying to derail it ? We know many will reject this idea. Let’s stick as to why icj thinks there might be a genocide happening atm.

thank you

That's a ridiculous premise.

How can any of us know why the ICJ thinks what might be happening?

BTW What ICJ didn't do was to ask for hostilities to stop.

Sachaski · 05/02/2024 17:47

Auvergne63 · 05/02/2024 17:29

They started it.
They make us do it.
Hamas is hiding behind civilians.
You are anti semitic if you say that.
It isn't a genocide because I say so.
What about other Arab ( meaning Muslim) countries taking them in? I don't see them doing that.
It's very sad or horrific but Hamas...
And I could go on.

Well pretty much spot on...apart from it isn't a genocide because it just isnt, in any way, shape or form. It's a War, and the people in Gaza who are innocent will also be better off when Hamas is gone.

anotherfatyorkie · 05/02/2024 17:50

Auvergne63 · 05/02/2024 17:21

The one you deem reputable, of course.
Anyway, this is a thread about the genocide of Palestinians. Do you object to it?

What are you taking about??

"The one you deem reputable, of course."

If I quote anything, others will object, say it's biased etc etc so it's all a bit pointless isn't it. People will believe what they want to believe.

"Anyway, this is a thread about the genocide of Palestinians. Do you object to it?"

Object to what?

The thread or the genocide of Palestinians ??

BackandForthRoundandRound · 05/02/2024 18:12

anotherfatyorkie · 05/02/2024 17:40

@BackandForthRoundandRound What about all of the history prior to October?

Oh yeah, when the Arabs turned down a 2-State Solution 5 times?

In 1937,1939,1947 & 1979

In addition 1948 to 1967, Israel did not control the West Bank. The Palestinians could have demanded an independent state from the Jordanians. On the contrary whilst Jordan was in control Arafat said there was no longer a claim as it was no longer part of Palestine.
Once it was back in Israeli hands it miraculously became disputed land again!😃

This is one of many reasons Jews and Israelis are cynical.

No, the nonstop violence Palestinians were having to experience as well as the terrible effect the blockades were having

anotherfatyorkie · 05/02/2024 18:14

BackandForthRoundandRound · 05/02/2024 18:12

No, the nonstop violence Palestinians were having to experience as well as the terrible effect the blockades were having

Maybe if they had stopped firing rockets into Israel they might have a peaceful time?

BackandForthRoundandRound · 05/02/2024 18:16

Sachaski · 05/02/2024 17:47

Well pretty much spot on...apart from it isn't a genocide because it just isnt, in any way, shape or form. It's a War, and the people in Gaza who are innocent will also be better off when Hamas is gone.

There have been thousands of innocents murdered already by Israeli forces.

To say that anyone will be "better off" after being forced to endure the loss of loved ones, especially in the horrific ways people are being murdered is not particularly pleasant.

The amount of children who have witnessed some of the most terrifying scenes imaginable are going to need extensive help and support to try to cope.

This is minimising completely what is happening.

BackandForthRoundandRound · 05/02/2024 18:18

anotherfatyorkie · 05/02/2024 18:14

Maybe if they had stopped firing rockets into Israel they might have a peaceful time?

Well, that's a lovely way to dismiss all of the suffering. (Also conveniently dismissing the terror campaign)

I believe that the Israeli government have made it crystal clear what their plans are with Palestine.

EasterIssland · 05/02/2024 18:25

anotherfatyorkie · 05/02/2024 17:44

That's a ridiculous premise.

How can any of us know why the ICJ thinks what might be happening?

BTW What ICJ didn't do was to ask for hostilities to stop.

ICJ says it's 'plausible' Israel committed genocide in Gaza The International Court of Justice ordered Israel to ensure its military does not take actions that violate the Genocide Convention, but the court did not call for a cease-fire

I mean … if they didn’t think they’re committing genocide they’d not even mention it

OP posts:
Snowypeak · 05/02/2024 18:30

While both Palestinians and Israelis have suffered over the years I think it’s pretty clear that the Palestinians have suffered on a far far greater scale. Many many many more Palestinian deaths, mutilations, bereavements, loss of homes and land. I don’t know how anyone would pretend not to see this.

PS it’s been going on for years so Hamas didn’t start it.

Auvergne63 · 05/02/2024 18:41

EasterIssland · 05/02/2024 17:37

Can we please ignore those trying to derail it ? We know many will reject this idea. Let’s stick as to why icj thinks there might be a genocide happening atm.

thank you

Sorry.

IncognitoIsMyFavouriteWord · 05/02/2024 18:50

anotherfatyorkie · 05/02/2024 16:03

It seems some people have lost sight of the fact that Hamas - the government of Gaza - decided to attack Israel and rape, burn, kill, maim innocent civilians including teenagers at a pop concert.

This war could end tomorrow if Hamas released the hostages they captured.

So maybe people should complain to Hamas?

What about the West Bank, what about Oct 7th. Bore off with this narrative. It does not wash. Israel has been doing this slowly for decades. They're just using Oct 7th as an excuse to ramp up their efforts.

Sachaski · 05/02/2024 19:01

BackandForthRoundandRound · 05/02/2024 18:16

There have been thousands of innocents murdered already by Israeli forces.

To say that anyone will be "better off" after being forced to endure the loss of loved ones, especially in the horrific ways people are being murdered is not particularly pleasant.

The amount of children who have witnessed some of the most terrifying scenes imaginable are going to need extensive help and support to try to cope.

This is minimising completely what is happening.

They are not being murdered in "horrific ways"...that is how Israelis were slaughtered on Oct 7th.

They are very unfortunate casualties of war that their own government brought on them intentionally

And yes the children will need support post war..alot of the older children will need to be de-radicilised as well...it's just a horrible situation all round.

EasterIssland · 05/02/2024 19:07

Sachaski · 05/02/2024 19:01

They are not being murdered in "horrific ways"...that is how Israelis were slaughtered on Oct 7th.

They are very unfortunate casualties of war that their own government brought on them intentionally

And yes the children will need support post war..alot of the older children will need to be de-radicilised as well...it's just a horrible situation all round.

edit cuz can’t be bothered with your comment

OP posts:
HeidiInTheBigCity · 05/02/2024 19:23

Sachaski · 05/02/2024 19:01

They are not being murdered in "horrific ways"...that is how Israelis were slaughtered on Oct 7th.

They are very unfortunate casualties of war that their own government brought on them intentionally

And yes the children will need support post war..alot of the older children will need to be de-radicilised as well...it's just a horrible situation all round.

I dunno about you - personally, I imagine "being crushed to death under a collapsed building" to be quite "horrific" - and "actually surviving for long enough to die of thirst" as even more "horrific". To slowly and agonisingly die of untreated illness or injury on the grounds of a totally collapsed medical system? Pretty "horrific". Dying of infection after an amputation without anaestesia? Pretty fucking "horrific" in my book! Lucky are the ones who are just killed outright and on the spot!

On a side note: I was speaking with a friend from Switzerland the other day - and she vigorously "but Hamas-ed" me. At which point, I opted to point out that William Tell, the Swiss mythical founding hero - basically sort of "the King Arthur of Switzerland" - would, in modern terms, be classed a terrorist! "Bloke with personal experience of injustice and humiliation, and the personal targetting of himself and his family" sounds very "Palestinian experience" to me. Anyway, as per the legend, Tell ends up assassinating a Habsburg bailiff - hoping, among other things, to inspire a large scale, violent popular uprising. And, for that matter, another mythical Swiss folk hero, Arnold von Winkelried, committed what arguably amounts to the medieval version of a suicide attack against enemy forces. My friend was pretty mind-blown at the idea. And I now feel vindicated for those several days I went down a "history of Switzerland" rabbit hole during COVID - because I was feeling bored out of my mind!

Sachaski · 05/02/2024 19:36

HeidiInTheBigCity · 05/02/2024 19:23

I dunno about you - personally, I imagine "being crushed to death under a collapsed building" to be quite "horrific" - and "actually surviving for long enough to die of thirst" as even more "horrific". To slowly and agonisingly die of untreated illness or injury on the grounds of a totally collapsed medical system? Pretty "horrific". Dying of infection after an amputation without anaestesia? Pretty fucking "horrific" in my book! Lucky are the ones who are just killed outright and on the spot!

On a side note: I was speaking with a friend from Switzerland the other day - and she vigorously "but Hamas-ed" me. At which point, I opted to point out that William Tell, the Swiss mythical founding hero - basically sort of "the King Arthur of Switzerland" - would, in modern terms, be classed a terrorist! "Bloke with personal experience of injustice and humiliation, and the personal targetting of himself and his family" sounds very "Palestinian experience" to me. Anyway, as per the legend, Tell ends up assassinating a Habsburg bailiff - hoping, among other things, to inspire a large scale, violent popular uprising. And, for that matter, another mythical Swiss folk hero, Arnold von Winkelried, committed what arguably amounts to the medieval version of a suicide attack against enemy forces. My friend was pretty mind-blown at the idea. And I now feel vindicated for those several days I went down a "history of Switzerland" rabbit hole during COVID - because I was feeling bored out of my mind!

Well of course it's horrific, but Israel is not at fault here....they are fighting to keep their people safe ( remember there is only 1 Jewish country in the world) Hamas's aim is to kill all Jews ( and Christians, gays, anyone not islamic fundamentalist basically) so Israel can't have this threat on their borders anymore, what would you have them do?

EasterIssland · 05/02/2024 19:42

Sachaski · 05/02/2024 19:36

Well of course it's horrific, but Israel is not at fault here....they are fighting to keep their people safe ( remember there is only 1 Jewish country in the world) Hamas's aim is to kill all Jews ( and Christians, gays, anyone not islamic fundamentalist basically) so Israel can't have this threat on their borders anymore, what would you have them do?

Israel is at fault here and they should protect civilians lives. End of. If not protected then it’s genocide. Not my word. ICJs.

your comments are really disrespectful to the Palestinians lives.

OP posts:
Sachaski · 05/02/2024 19:47

EasterIssland · 05/02/2024 19:42

Israel is at fault here and they should protect civilians lives. End of. If not protected then it’s genocide. Not my word. ICJs.

your comments are really disrespectful to the Palestinians lives.

Edited

They are trying their best to protect civilian lives, have you seen the air drops, phonecalls etc. ? it is hard when their enemy wants to maximise civilian ( their own civilians) deaths for their own benefit

Scirocco · 05/02/2024 19:49

Sachaski · 05/02/2024 19:01

They are not being murdered in "horrific ways"...that is how Israelis were slaughtered on Oct 7th.

They are very unfortunate casualties of war that their own government brought on them intentionally

And yes the children will need support post war..alot of the older children will need to be de-radicilised as well...it's just a horrible situation all round.

It is entirely possible for 2 horrible things to have happened or be happening.

People are murdered in horrific ways in war, terror and torture. It isn't a competition where only one group can be afforded sympathy.

What is happening in Gaza, from the information available to me, looks to be on a different scale than pretty much anywhere else I've worked or my colleagues worked. Civilian casualties in wars are not new, but what is quite new (and to some pretty experienced people) is the scale, the gratuitousness of it, the lack of meaningful steps to reduce casualties (in accordance with obligations).

There are many ways in which a technologically well-equipped, well-staffed military force, backed up by an experienced intelligence agency, can achieve military objectives while effectively minimising civilian casualties. There are no signs of these being used as the norm in Gaza.

There are responsibilities under international humanitarian law to provide aid. Aid remains actively blocked from entering and then being distributed in Gaza. What is getting in is woefully insufficient to meet any population needs.

There are certain things that a power is meant to or expected to do when dealing with civilians or people attempting to surrender. Those do not include just shooting them. Instead, there should be protocols for securing a situation, confirming identities and security, etc. When civilian casualties occur or are likely to occur, there is an expectation that someone will have considered how to get these figures as low as possible. That doesn't include getting a sniper to shoot elderly women. The distribution of casualties across males, females and children shows a distribution which is closer to the general population demographics than would be expected if a force were targeting 'probable' combatants (in that case, you'd expect to see higher ratios of adult or late teen males). That suggests that there aren't nearly enough efforts being made to minimise civilian casualties.

There are some places that military forces are really not meant to bomb/flatten/shoot up. Hospitals, for example.

There is also evidence of rapid destruction of buildings of cultural importance, which is relevant as it is the erasure of a people's culture, history and identity.

If a military force is engaging in or is suspected to be engaging in those actions, some of which are violations of humanitarian law, then there are grounds to be concerned about potential genocide, war crimes, etc.

When you say children will need support, that makes me think you've never seen a severely injured child who's seen their family killed in front of their eyes. Those children need far more than a bit of support. Their lives have been destroyed. I've seen too many children in that situation.

Scirocco · 05/02/2024 19:54

I think the hope was that this could be a thread objecting to the genocide (or alleged/suspected genocide if you prefer). Perhaps people who are in favour of it or aren't that bothered might find it helpful to start their own threads to talk about not objecting to it.

EasterIssland · 05/02/2024 20:04

Sachaski · 05/02/2024 19:47

They are trying their best to protect civilian lives, have you seen the air drops, phonecalls etc. ? it is hard when their enemy wants to maximise civilian ( their own civilians) deaths for their own benefit

Sure you’re right. The hostage with the white flag got a phone call as well their mistake. They should have tried it harder. Can you please let it know to icj? They don’t seem convinced that Israel is trying to save lives

OP posts:
Sachaski · 05/02/2024 20:06

Scirocco · 05/02/2024 19:49

It is entirely possible for 2 horrible things to have happened or be happening.

People are murdered in horrific ways in war, terror and torture. It isn't a competition where only one group can be afforded sympathy.

What is happening in Gaza, from the information available to me, looks to be on a different scale than pretty much anywhere else I've worked or my colleagues worked. Civilian casualties in wars are not new, but what is quite new (and to some pretty experienced people) is the scale, the gratuitousness of it, the lack of meaningful steps to reduce casualties (in accordance with obligations).

There are many ways in which a technologically well-equipped, well-staffed military force, backed up by an experienced intelligence agency, can achieve military objectives while effectively minimising civilian casualties. There are no signs of these being used as the norm in Gaza.

There are responsibilities under international humanitarian law to provide aid. Aid remains actively blocked from entering and then being distributed in Gaza. What is getting in is woefully insufficient to meet any population needs.

There are certain things that a power is meant to or expected to do when dealing with civilians or people attempting to surrender. Those do not include just shooting them. Instead, there should be protocols for securing a situation, confirming identities and security, etc. When civilian casualties occur or are likely to occur, there is an expectation that someone will have considered how to get these figures as low as possible. That doesn't include getting a sniper to shoot elderly women. The distribution of casualties across males, females and children shows a distribution which is closer to the general population demographics than would be expected if a force were targeting 'probable' combatants (in that case, you'd expect to see higher ratios of adult or late teen males). That suggests that there aren't nearly enough efforts being made to minimise civilian casualties.

There are some places that military forces are really not meant to bomb/flatten/shoot up. Hospitals, for example.

There is also evidence of rapid destruction of buildings of cultural importance, which is relevant as it is the erasure of a people's culture, history and identity.

If a military force is engaging in or is suspected to be engaging in those actions, some of which are violations of humanitarian law, then there are grounds to be concerned about potential genocide, war crimes, etc.

When you say children will need support, that makes me think you've never seen a severely injured child who's seen their family killed in front of their eyes. Those children need far more than a bit of support. Their lives have been destroyed. I've seen too many children in that situation.

Re the hospitals, I think it is now proven that Hamas were using them as military bases, some with the ability to fire rockets.

Military intelligence...yes it's normally good and you can take out people precisely....but not if they're hiding in a tunnel?!

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