Uk politicians position about the war

[EasterIssland]

I’ve read that in the last few days Starmer is concerned about the Muslim people not voting labour cuz of his position

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/30/labour-acts-on-fears-muslims-will-not-vote-for-party-over-gaza-stance

do you think this will have an impact on this years general elections ? I guess whatever they do they’ll lose votes

I'm talking about the real life Israeli lobby though. Not tropes about Jewish people controlling the media or being puppet masters. The Israeli lobby exists and in some countries is very influential.

It does not change the fact it is used as an antisemitic trope, and you've now been told it causes harm.

Ilan Pappe like many people who are critical of Israel:
"...has received death threats, been denounced by the Knesset, and was forced to leave his post at the University of Haifa, Israel, in 2008"

He was one of a trio of Israeli Historians (along with Avi Shlaim and Benny Morris) who got access to declassified Israeli Government documents in the 1980s:
"These Israeli documents substantiated oral testimonies given over the years by Palestinian refugees all over the world. The archives of the United Nations offered further corroboration."
also:
"We jointly and independently debunked the Israeli mythology surrounding these events and accepted major chapters in the Palestinian narrative."

Interestingly of the 3 both Ilan and Avi live and teach in the U.K.,

https://www.thewhitereview.org/poetry/interview-with-ilan-pappe/

Ilan Pappe's latest book released in June 2024 is about this influence on both sides of the Atlantic.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0861544021/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=

It is not antisemitic to talk about whether lobbyists working in the interests of foreign government have an undue influence on domestic policies.

For example if Netanyahu gets the regional escalation he has been agitating for and that leads to a large scale displacement/refugees that end up in Europe, who do you think will be blamed?

Thank you @79Helene for setting it out. The harm these tropes do is 'real life' @ConnieCounter. That's why Hope Not Hate, well established anti-fascist organisation produced that document. Noone is saying that people, all people, don't try to influence each other. Politics is about influencing people. This is about how you hold the conversation. Referencing the 'Israeli lobby' as a general shorthand that everyone understands - and they understand it because of the centuries old insidious stereotype - rather than being specific about who/what is influencing who and somehow implying that its not a normal thing (we've established that influence is what politics is about) is not usually a good faith way to hold a constructive conversation. Like any dog whistle. I mean who is the Israel Lobby anyway?

And I didn't say that anyone who talks about the Israeli lobby is acting in bad faith did I? I said they were usually acting in bad faith. And 'the Israel lobby' is a much more common phrase in this country than calling other groups who try to exercise political influence the 'X lobby' because Israel is generally held to a different standard and generates more column inches (in this case MN threads) than most other places.

Since we are talking politics, and I was responding to @EasterIssland comment about the Labour government, I would have thought it was obvious I was referring to Labour Friends of Israel.

Then I would have referred specifically to the Labour Friends of Israel. This is good example.

re Labour Friends of Israel
“This is a good example”

What do you mean please?

Do you mean that Labour Friends of Israel
references “the 'Israeli lobby' as a general shorthand that everyone understands”?

It's "good example" to explicitly state who or what you mean. Instead of using a general shorthand that often implies ambiguous, nefarious and shadowy groups, and very, very often has antisemitic context.

Thank you, I understand that point, and I also read the Unison pamphlet you posted and saw they highlighted the phrase “Israeli lobby” as being problematic.

What I was wondering though is why SharonEllis said

SharonEllis · Today 07:29
Then I would have referred specifically to the Labour Friends of Israel. This is good example.

in response to this previous post:
AhNowTed · Today 07:20
Since we are talking politics, and I was responding to **comment about the Labour government, I would have thought it was obvious I was referring to Labour Friends of Israel.

What is wrong with Labour Friends of Israel? Do they use the term “Israel lobby”.
Are they prone to suggesting there is a powerful, nefarious Jewish group which has undue influence?

But she didn't initially refer to the LFI! Instead she said, "I would have thought it was obvious". Well no, it wasn't and it's been explained why it's problematic.

What is wrong with Labour Friends of Israel? Do they use the term “Israel lobby”.
Are they prone to suggesting there is a powerful, nefarious Jewish group which has undue influence?
I'm going to assume you posted this in good faith, however it does smack of sarcasm. No, LFI do not refer to 'the Israel lobby' or 'the Jewish lobby'. Other people do.

Thank you for explaining. I had completely misunderstood SharonEllis’s response.

I have just realised what she meant by, “Then I would have referred to Labour Friends for Israel. That is a good example.”

I had thought she meant Labour Friends of Israel were a ‘good example’ of a group that talks in an insinuating way about powerful Jewish influence. I had missed that she seems to be saying AhNowTed’s previous posts about Israel lobby had been themselves been an example of such insinuation by not specifically referring to Labour Friends for Israel [in the first instance].

No, there was no sarcasm. I was asking because I did not know the answer, and trying to be clear about the questions.
I know nothing about the group Labour Friends for Israel other than seeing at a glance that says it is advocating for a two state solution. I also vaguely thought there might be reason for thinking it might be a harmful group if had had a previous connection with Jeremy Corbyn’s policies.

@ScrollingLeaves There's no love lost between Corbyn and LFI. Members generally sit in the centre and right of the Labour Party.

Thank you.

Its worth noting that there is crossover between Labour Friends of Israel and Labour Friends of Palestine & the ME.

Thanks @79Helene you have explained to @ScrollingLeaves what I meant perfectly.

I would add that LFI is one of many similar groups (I've mentioned LFP&ME but there are others). There are also the APPGs. All are 'lobby' groups in that they resrarch, share information, facilitate exchange and seek to influence. All fine & normal in a functioning democracy. Their membership & what they do is published & they are accountable. Vague phrases like 'Israel lobby' are just vacuums that people will fill with their own prejudices & the history of false stories about 'zionist' propaganda and influence is a very long one. The 'Israel lobby' is just the latest iteration. If you mean LFI, say it. If you mean a particular Israeli business owner or media outlet say it. Or the Israeli ambassador etc. If you're not precise noone can assess your accusation & its just a dog whistle.
LFI website is full of useful material which Im sure will be of interest.
https://www.lfi.org.uk/about/

The guardia

UK foreign secretary: reports of Unrwa workers being killed by Israeli strike in Gaza are 'appalling'
The UK’s foreign secretary, David Lammy, has described the reported deaths of six Unrwa workers in an Israeli strike on a UN-run school in Gaza as “appalling”.
In a message posted on social media, the recently installed foreign secretary said:
Reports of six Unrwa staff members being killed in an Israeli strike are appalling. My thoughts are with their families and all those who continue to carry out lifesaving work. Aid workers must be able to do their jobs safely. We need a ceasefire and hostage release deal now.

——

maybe it’s about time uk stops selling weapons to Israel like the unions are demanding ??

Yes @EasterIssland

Words don’t count for much when they followed up with action.

36 MPs have written to the government raising concerns about complicity in violations of international law by not suspending export licences for F-35 par

https://x.com/zarahsultana/status/1834551674188263493

Thanks for posting. The tweet has loads of really useful links in the quotes and replies on the IDF's conduct in the war written by a range of experts. Well worth looking at.

Do you mind linking which comments you’re referring to? As I can’t see a comment with links (the comments that are displayed for me might be different to the ones you’ve got)

@EasterIssland sure. Here is one thread that was in the responses to that post. It links to various articles from military experts on the issues in fighting this war.

x.com/Aizenberg55/status/1834223105889178033

Thanks @SharonEllis I’m busy at the moment but will read it later.

Not uk but Germany.

does anyone know what crime is it in Germany to be pro- Palestinian motivated crimes? Hopefully, we won’t see this crime in the uk!

This is the first thing I found from Google search.
German police raid homes of pro-Palestinian activists
https://www.dw.com/en/german-police-raid-homes-of-pro-palestinian-activists/a-70363024

It mentions that the police found some anti-Semitic slogans, and also that one of the men had attacked a politician.

Here is another mention of that arrest.
www.yahoo.com/news/police-berlin-raid-flats-pro-133315342.html