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Conflict in the Middle East

Uk politicians position about the war

492 replies

EasterIssland · 31/01/2024 18:28

I’ve read that in the last few days Starmer is concerned about the Muslim people not voting labour cuz of his position

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/30/labour-acts-on-fears-muslims-will-not-vote-for-party-over-gaza-stance

do you think this will have an impact on this years general elections ? I guess whatever they do they’ll lose votes

Labour acts on fears Muslims will not vote for party over Gaza stance | Labour | The Guardian

Exclusive: Party launches outreach effort amid concerns it is losing support of normally loyal voters

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/30/labour-acts-on-fears-muslims-will-not-vote-for-party-over-gaza-stance

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Limesodaagain · 20/08/2024 18:23

@TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree
I agree we’re going round in circles.
I do understand your position and I’m sorry that I haven’t really managed to explain mine ( beyond making you feel I have double standards)
Im going to leave the conversation now .

Scirocco · 20/08/2024 18:26

Limesodaagain · 20/08/2024 18:06

I don’t value one set of lives more than another. I just don’t believe that the unilateral disarmament of Israel is a route to lasting peace in the region. I think the threats to Israel need also to be removed.
I do support our politicians putting pressure on Israel with regard to the horrific situation in Gaza. I don’t think it is wise or just for our politicians to do anything that will embolden Hamas or Iran.

I don't think people (at least on here) are suggesting that unilateral disarmament of Israel would be a good thing. What people are suggesting is that countries that claim to uphold international law should not be supplying arms to be used in breach of international law and that supplies should be paused when there are credible grounds to believe that they are being used in breach of international law, so that investigations can be carried out. That's very different from imposing a unilateral disarmament, and confusing the two isn't helpful.

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 20/08/2024 19:58

ConnieCounter · 20/08/2024 18:32

https://x.com/AssalRad/status/1825934856611930351?t=fgrgNnXU1xQ0MNasGTJEzw&s=19

More slaughter today funded and facilitated by US and allies.

I read today that Israel have killed 1 in 50 people in Gaza, I remember when it was 1 in 100 and being appalled then. It's really shocking that countries like the US have helped out with this. At what point do they say enough, 1 in 25, 1 in 10?

ConnieCounter · 20/08/2024 20:22

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 20/08/2024 19:58

I read today that Israel have killed 1 in 50 people in Gaza, I remember when it was 1 in 100 and being appalled then. It's really shocking that countries like the US have helped out with this. At what point do they say enough, 1 in 25, 1 in 10?

That statistic is unbelievable.

Limesodaagain · 20/08/2024 21:54

Scirocco · 20/08/2024 18:26

I don't think people (at least on here) are suggesting that unilateral disarmament of Israel would be a good thing. What people are suggesting is that countries that claim to uphold international law should not be supplying arms to be used in breach of international law and that supplies should be paused when there are credible grounds to believe that they are being used in breach of international law, so that investigations can be carried out. That's very different from imposing a unilateral disarmament, and confusing the two isn't helpful.

@Scirocco
You have always been fair and honest and courteous on here. I believe you know innocent Palestinian medics who have lost their lives in this conflict. I’m sorry if my contrarian views are upsetting to you. Their lives will not be lived in vain.
You have a very strong ethical views and I respect it . But the world is corrupt and unethical and we have to navigate our way through as best we can while still trying to support those who are vulnerable. None of this is easy .

Scirocco · 21/08/2024 08:31

If people aid or support the violation of international law, they're complicit in that violation and should be considered responsible for their actions and choices in that regard. Until a few months ago, that wasn't exactly a controversial viewpoint.

For comparison...

When concerns arose about UNRWA, countries halted their funding of it. That lack of funding was considered necessary by governments, despite the knowledge that it would have severe consequences for innocent people in Palestine, some of whom died because they could not receive the assistance which UNRWA would otherwise have been undertaking to provide. This was justified and defended by governments on the basis that the potential harm of funding an organisation about which there were allegations of involvement in terrorist atrocities outweighed the potential harm to people from not funding it. Investigations were carried out, issues identified and even now, funding has not yet been fully restored.

Meanwhile, countries continue to supply Israel with arms and supplies for use in military operations in Palestine. The explicit, stated purpose of these supplies is to kill people. There are credible concerns that these supplies may not be being used in accordance with international law. Yet those supplies continue to be provided, for direct use in the very area in which those concerns have been raised.

That is the outcome of the calculations weighing up the value of Palestinian lives.

Calculations about the values of lives happen every day and hard decisions get made on the basis of them. Attempting rescues, calling off searches, the cost:benefit analysis of miliary operations, how much compensation is due to bereaved relatives, etc. In theory, there should be a starting point of all lives being of equal intrinsic value. In practice, that doesn't happen. We see it in those calculations every day. What we see in these calculations is that some lives are worth sufficiently less in the eyes of the people doing the calculations, that even additional factors such as potential violations of international law do not change outcomes away from active contributions to the very acts causing harm to those people. Whether someone finds it more palatable to include that reduced value explicitly at the start of the calculation, or to factor it in at the end with a 'but', the outcome is the same:

The lives of Palestinians are not considered, by some, to have sufficient value to be grounds to pause or halt the supplies of arms used in military action against them, when there are credible concerns that those arms are being used in ways which violate international law.

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EasterIssland · 03/09/2024 07:55

More about this from bbc
The UK decision to suspend some arms sales to Israel is "disappointing" and sends the "wrong message", an Israeli minister tells the BBC

Defence Secretary John Healey is speaking to BBC Breakfast now.
He says arms licences have been suspended for parts which are being used “for offensive purposes” in Gaza.
“This is a government that has a duty to the law,” he says.
Asked about Labour backbenchers who want a complete ban on arms sales to Israel, Healey says he does not accept this demand, and that the situation in Gaza requires the government to review the licenses involved

Asked why components for F35 jets are not included in the suspension, Healey says there was a "deliberate carve out" for these jets.
He says around 1,000 jets are used by 20 countries around the world, not just in the UK and Israel.
"The UK makes important, critical components for all those jets that go into a global pool," the defence secretary says.
He adds that, because of this, it's "hard to distinguish" which components would go into Israeli jets.
"This is a global supply chain, with the UK a vital part of that supply chain. We are not prepared to put at risk the operation of fighter jets that are central to our own UK security, that of our allies and of Nato."

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marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 03/09/2024 09:39

It's far too little, far too late, but at least it isn't nothing. I don't know how they could stand in the same room as that shitbag Netanyahu.

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Itoosurvive · 03/09/2024 10:47

I think Andrew Mitchell hit the nail on the head when he tweeted,

"Having now looked at Labour’s memorandum, it has all the appearance of something designed to satisfy Labour’s backbenches, while at the same time not offending Israel, an ally in the Middle East. I fear it will fail on both counts."

And whilst Netanyahu may publicly show outrage at the decision, underneath he knows that it is merely a gesture and that the UK's support for Israel has not, in reality, waned that much.

MissyB1 · 03/09/2024 15:41

Itoosurvive · 03/09/2024 10:47

I think Andrew Mitchell hit the nail on the head when he tweeted,

"Having now looked at Labour’s memorandum, it has all the appearance of something designed to satisfy Labour’s backbenches, while at the same time not offending Israel, an ally in the Middle East. I fear it will fail on both counts."

And whilst Netanyahu may publicly show outrage at the decision, underneath he knows that it is merely a gesture and that the UK's support for Israel has not, in reality, waned that much.

Yes I suspect he's right, it's too half hearted.

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AhNowTed · 11/09/2024 20:57

EasterIssland · 11/09/2024 20:33

As a staunch Labour member and voter, this sickens me.

This fascinating interview with eminent Israeli historian Ilan Pappe might provide some insight. Talks in depth about the history of the Israeli lobby and Labour. Facinating!

SharonEllis · 11/09/2024 21:30

It might be useful context to mention that this 'eminent' Israeli historian is an opponent of the state of Israel, supporter of BDS and after 7 October said that Hamas was 'Not a terrorist movement”, adding it was “a national liberation and resistance movement”. Pappe does not live in Israel but is a professor at Exeter university where he is insulated from the implications of his beliefs.

PeasfullPerson · 11/09/2024 22:00

I have had a quick read of an article he wrote and have concluded from this brief insight into his beliefs, that he seems to lack empathy for Israel, as much as some Israeli’s lack empathy for Palestine. Or at least that is how he came across in this, which left me feeling uncomfortable, which I also feel when people try to justify the deaths of civilians in Gaza.

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/my-israeli-friends-this-is-why-i-support-palestinians-ilan-pappe/

My Israeli Friends: This is Why I Support Palestinians - ILAN PAPPE

It is not always easy to stick to your moral compass, but if it does point north – towards decolonization and liberation – then it will most likely guide you through the fog of poisonous propaganda.

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/my-israeli-friends-this-is-why-i-support-palestinians-ilan-pappe

psifreeze · 11/09/2024 22:19

AhNowTed · 11/09/2024 20:57

As a staunch Labour member and voter, this sickens me.

This fascinating interview with eminent Israeli historian Ilan Pappe might provide some insight. Talks in depth about the history of the Israeli lobby and Labour. Facinating!

I saw the novara medal tweet supporting Sarah Wilkinson recently. They really know how to pick them.

SharonEllis · 11/09/2024 22:26

psifreeze · 11/09/2024 22:19

I saw the novara medal tweet supporting Sarah Wilkinson recently. They really know how to pick them.

Novara is certainly not a neutral player. Anyone who uses the term Israeli lobby is usually not acting in good faith.There are ways to talk about political influence from any source (when's the last time you heard anyone speak of 'the French lobby'?) without tapping into antisemitic tropes at such a febrile time.

ConnieCounter · 11/09/2024 23:04

SharonEllis · 11/09/2024 22:26

Novara is certainly not a neutral player. Anyone who uses the term Israeli lobby is usually not acting in good faith.There are ways to talk about political influence from any source (when's the last time you heard anyone speak of 'the French lobby'?) without tapping into antisemitic tropes at such a febrile time.

Why is it antisemitic to talk about the lobbying/diplomatic efforts of Israel?

Scirocco · 11/09/2024 23:09

People do talk about other lobbying groups and countries though. Including France and the Paris lobby. Lobbying happens across many countries and political systems, and can be by small groups, large groups, even countries and multinational groups brought together by common interests.

SharonEllis · 11/09/2024 23:09

Scirocco · 11/09/2024 23:09

People do talk about other lobbying groups and countries though. Including France and the Paris lobby. Lobbying happens across many countries and political systems, and can be by small groups, large groups, even countries and multinational groups brought together by common interests.

Yes I am well aware of what lobbying is.

ConnieCounter · 11/09/2024 23:13

SharonEllis · 11/09/2024 23:09

Yes I am well aware of what lobbying is.

You said that anyone who talks about the Israeli lobby is acting in bad faith, so I'm not sure you do.

79Helene · 11/09/2024 23:18

It's a well worn, and well known, antisemitic trope and is more often than not used with nefarious connotations, unlike other lobbying groups or countries.

"The idea that Jewish people have undue influence on world politics and a secret agenda is an age-old trope. It is often promoted by claiming that Jewish people dominate in bank ownership and the media, or that Jewish people have deep and sinister political connections.

The most common trope regarding undue influence propagated by left-wing antisemites is the suggestion that the “Zionist lobby”, “Israel lobby” or even Mossad are somehow steering UK domestic politics to such an extent that political leaders cannot be trusted. Words such as “Puppet masters” are also often used to describe these foreign powers. Doing this is antisemitic and must be avoided"
https://www.unison.org.uk/content/uploads/2024/02/234_Hope-not-Hate_v6.pdf

https://www.unison.org.uk/content/uploads/2024/02/234_Hope-not-Hate_v6.pdf