Uk politicians position about the war

[EasterIssland]

I’ve read that in the last few days Starmer is concerned about the Muslim people not voting labour cuz of his position

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/30/labour-acts-on-fears-muslims-will-not-vote-for-party-over-gaza-stance

do you think this will have an impact on this years general elections ? I guess whatever they do they’ll lose votes

Not concerned that us ignoring Israel breaking international law is emboldening them though? How do you not see how your posts are riddled with double standards.

I am NOT ok with the killing of children. I sincerely deplore it . On both sides.
I think the killing of children will not stop unless Hamas is also defeated.

Can you explain how you think Hamas being defeated will stop the killing of children? I think all of the parents of the children killed in the West Bank even prior to 7/10 would disagree. 2023 the deadliest year for children there prior to 7/10, the ignoring of Israel breaking international law only seems to have emboldened Israel and the settler violence and killings there have reached new levels. You think that will stop once Israel wipe out Hamas and destroy most of Gaza?

I’m actually trying quite hard to see things from both sides. I’m sorry if that seems as if I have double standards and support the killing of children. I don’t . I deplore Hamas And Netanyahu and fully support any move to take all weapons away from both.

Which comes across as: the lives of the Palestinian children currently being destroyed with the arms supplied by our country/countries are a bearable price to pay to achieve that aim of destroying Hamas.

If you don't think that's an acceptable price to pay, why continue to support arms sales for that purpose?

I said “ think the killing of children will not stop unless Hamas is also defeated.” The word “ Also” implies BOTH the Israeli government AND Hamas need to be defeated and removed .

Sound. Genuinely, all people are looking for is for Israel to held to the same standards as everyone else. If international law isn't the standard that we hold countries by then things can get really muddy really fast and Western countries could start supplying weapons to Iran for instance or Russia because the precedent is there to ignore International Law, that won't make things any safer for Israel or us in the long run.

Why does it come across that way? That is NOT what I think.
I don’t KNOW what the right answer is . Maybe you are right but I have fears that there is no easy answer.
Of course I want the slaughter of Palestinians to stop but I don’t want Israel to be vulnerable to attacks from all sides .

Is the slaughter of Palestinians (in breach of international law) a price you can be ok with paying, to avoid Israel potentially being more vulnerable to attacks?

If it isn't, why then support the sale of arms to be used for that purpose?

I’m not ok with the slaughter of innocent civilians whether Palestinian or Israeli

Then why support the supply of arms for use in Palestine?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5ydg5lqgwxo.am

good for Scotland

I don’t support it. I just think it’s not enough to stop the supply of arms to Israel.There needs to some protection in place for both communities

This takes sitting on the fence to a new level.

Maybe it seems that way to you but both sides have justifiable fears and I genuinely find I have sympathy for the innocent on both sides.

One side is experiencing genocide and the topic here is whether arms should continue to be provided for the genocide to continue.

Of course we all want an end to the slaughter in Gaza. But a lasting peace also requires the removal of the threats to Israel.

10 months all that threat still exists. Maybe, Israel should stop this approach and try a different one. (If it doesn’t involve killing innocent civilians even better)

You say you want it to stop but you seem to have major misgivings about stopping military aid and the sale of arms and bombs to Israel. So it's hard to take your stated concerns about the people of Gaza seriously.

I want security for both Israelis and Palestinians.

If that means you don’t think my concerns about the situation in Gaza are genuine then I’m not sure we can agree.

I think something you are missing is that we can't 'defeat and remove' Netanyahu. He is the democratically elected leader of a sovereign state. Even if we could it isnt our place to remove him and even if we could removing him isn't going to fix the issue of extremist settlers or suddenly remove the 10% of Israelis that have chosen to live on illegally occupied land.

All the West can do is choose not support Netanyahu, his government and the IDF. That's all people have been asking for for months. We can't stop the slaughter but the same way we don't arm Iran or Hamas or Russia we can choose not to arm Israel and be participants in it. We can choose to sanction Israel the same way we sanction Iran or Russia so we aren't complicit in what they are doing. These measures still give Israelis the right to self determination, if they choose they can still choose to illegally occupy, they can still choose to allow violent settlers, they can still choose to have a far right government, they can still choose to defend themselves in whatever way they see fit but we aren't supporting and helping them to do so.

'Defeating and removing' the democratically elected government of another country just isn't something that we have any business doing, the same way in the UK someone coming over and removing the government isn't something any other country has any right to do.

I think something you are missing is that we can't 'defeat and remove' Netanyahu
I didn’t mean that WE should defeat and remove Netanyahu in a military sense. I was referring more to the hope that he would be defeated in a political sense by Israelis… but I accept that I wasn’t clear in my phrasing - apologies

We can't stop the slaughter but the same way we don't arm Iran or Hamas or Russia we can choose not to arm Israel and be participants in it.
We do arm Ukraine though… and if we didn’t Russia would now occupy all of Ukraine.

Israel has many questions to answer regarding its treatment of Palestinians but Israel does not present a threat to the peace and stability of other countries in the way that Iran and Russia do. Iran and Russia present a much greater threat on a much wider scale.

Im not saying I don’t see your point of view but I don’t think comparing Israel to Iran or Russia is a convincing comparison.

I'm not sure what you think Netanyahu not being in power would accomplish tbh. The vast majority of Israelis support what he has done in the Gaza strip, if Netanyahu wasnt there they would still be in favour of a very 'hard line' approach. Half of Israelis support running Gaza after the war. Half of Israelis support annexation in the West Bank. Netanyahu isn't some rogue leader, what he is doing is broadly in line with the will of the people he is representing. What is it you believe Netanyahu not being in power would achieve?

It feels like you are saying we shouldn't treat Israel the same as other countries breaking international law because it's only people in surrounding countries/territories that are at risk and not us but surely that can't be the case? Do you think we should support Israel to illegally occupy, to kill 10s of 1000s of people, to break international law or not?

I know you think you are just seeing things from 'both sides' but it does come across quite strongly as you valuing Israeli lives more than Palestinian or anyone else in the region. That special exceptions should be made for Israel over other countries that break International law but you aren't really verbalising why that should be the case other than they don't pose a threat to you?

I don’t value one set of lives more than another. I just don’t believe that the unilateral disarmament of Israel is a route to lasting peace in the region. I think the threats to Israel need also to be removed.
I do support our politicians putting pressure on Israel with regard to the horrific situation in Gaza. I don’t think it is wise or just for our politicians to do anything that will embolden Hamas or Iran.

I don’t think it is wise or just for our p
oliticians to do anything that will embolden Hamas or Iran.

Yeah you said that, you just don't have a problem with them emboldening Israel but you definitely value all lives in the middle East the same, you just support different rules for different countries. It's circles innit, pointless conversation.