ICJ: SA Genocide Case vs. ISR - part 2

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

1st thread is full - here comes part 2!

Oh, well then one OAP Israeli murdered in the past 48hrs by Hamas in retaliation during a war is clearly more than enough reason to keep slaughtering an average of 500 Palestinians every 48hrs in Gaza.

Again, can you not hear your dismissive tone about the woman who was killed? She isn't dead from an airstrke aimed at a military target. She's dead because people grabbed her off the street and stuck a knife in her at close quarters.

The IDF are not "slaughering" Gazans as some sort of eye-for-an-eye revenge attack. They are conducting a military operation to remove Hamas. The civilian deaths are a total tragedy in this but Hamas have their share of blame in that.

I'll await the ICJ ruling anyway.

@Efacsen is the hospital near Tal al Hawa? As I have just seen that neighbourhood has been bombed severely, totally destroyed

Not sure - field hospital is on google maps so will go and look

They are according to the definition of “slaughter”
killing of great numbers of human beings (as in battle or a massacre)

If 500 people, including 200 children, killed every 48hrs isn’t a slaughter, it would only be because you think it is not a large number of people.

No one here, least of all me, is dismissing a woman who was killed.

Don't even try to go there. You are embarrassing yourself.

Sorry, I don’t think it matters much to the victims exactly how they were killed.
I hardly think I’ve been dismissive of her, after all she’s worth 500 Palestinians in your world view that thinks it’s too dangerous to Israel to call a ceasefire because 1 Israeli has died in 48hrs compared to 500 Palestinians.

I have just checked, the hospital is in Khan younis and Tal al Hawa is slightly further away

Don't even try to go there. You are embarrassing yourself.

You said you felt some people minimised Palestinian casualties. I said I felt you were doing the same in this instance as your own particular reaction to this death was exclusively to use it to make that point.
Why the need to be hostile and insulting? Make your point if you have one, don't lash out.

I think we should be able to recognise that all innocent deaths are a tragedy. And not give one or the other a higher or lower status depending on which side of the border the person died.
I'm not aiming the comment at anyone BTW but just sharing my own thoughts.

I don't disagree with you at all. I will hold my hand up and say that I have more familiarity with the Israeli victims in general, due to the sources I follow and discussions I participate in, which does probably constitute a bit of a bubble, but every innocent death is a tragedy and and massive personal loss for loved ones.

While we might differ on cause and culpability, we can agree on that.

I understand for Israeli posters this feels personal. But as someone with no "skin in the game" so to speak I don't get why you think this point helps.
The terrorist murder of the OAP is awful. So are the stories coming out of Gaza of civilians including women and children being killed by Israel snipers. Including Israeli hostages trying to escape.
Both sides need to recognise each others grievances and respond. Trying to blame Hamas is unlikely to wash with a family who've lost loved ones to Israeli army activity.

@SomeCatFromJapan every innocent death is a tragedy and and massive personal loss for loved ones.

fully agree with this

I’m sorry, I disagree about neither side being all right or all wrong. They are both all wrong. There is no way on earth Hamas can justify killing 1,000+ people and taking 100 + hostages. Not to mention all the rape. Likewise, the Israeli bombing of Gaza, killing thousands of children, destroying homes, schools, and anything else in their path. Nothing makes that right. Both sides need to wake up from their hate induced stupor and take a look at themselves and what they have done.

The problem is kendodd that Palestinians are not Hamas. At the moment tens of thousands of Palestinians have died as a result of Hamas and Israeli actions, neither of which they could have stopped or avoided.

The way the Israeli government and pro-Israeli sources talk about it is as if Gaza is a country, with an Army and a Government that Hamas are running. They aren't. They are a terrorist organisation that certain Israeli factions propped up when it suited them. "Destroying Hamas" is an unachievable aim and the kind of language around "both sides" doesn't help the Palestinian civilians at imminent risk of death.

@SummerFeverVenice what an awful thing to say. How dehumanising.

Oh, well then one OAP Israeli murdered in the past 48hrs by Hamas in retaliation

Thanks for answering, would you mind letting me know the name of the MEMRI report so I can read it that way?

I apologise if you felt i was hostile and insulting to you. Its a very emotive subject and i get so wound up on here sometimes. But i shouldn't, so sorry again.

Both sides need to recognise each others grievances and respond. Trying to blame Hamas is unlikely to wash with a family who've lost loved ones to Israeli army activity

I don’t read Twitter, Facebook, Insta or any other social media. I’m neither Jewish nor Arab. I get my news from mainstream sources with discretion in that I recognise different biases. However, I’m tired both of hearing history twisted to blame Israel for all the woes of the ME and of the stock phrases used by many who support Palestine that makes it sound like they are parroting something they are reading elsewhere. Ditto all the calls for ceasefires that don’t call for the return of the hostages.

And of course Hamas, a recognised terrorist group who has caused trouble throughout the Middle East, and which has constantly acted with terror towards Israel, is to blame for the current situation despite the blind spot that many have towards them.

I apologise if you felt i was hostile and insulting to you. Its a very emotive subject and i get so wound up on here sometimes. But i shouldn't, so sorry again.

Thank you, I'm sorry for getting shirty also. I know that it's from strong feelings on a very upsetting subject and not ill intent.

If this isn't a genocide or even ethnic cleansing and is in fact all about just Hamas, then please someone explain why they are even having this conversation about living in Gaza and even being ready to live in tents if they don't have a house and they can build quickly.

www.instagram.com/reel/C197FWtKinR/?igsh=MTk5b3h1aW0xOHZmOA==

"Who is to blame for the woes of the middle east" is also not helpful for the people who have lost loved ones in Gaza.

To me it just comes across very dismissive to say "well it's Hamas' fault, the Israelis are defending themselves" about such a huge humanitarian crisis.

I understand Israel wanting to do that, and to some extent I understand Jews feeling that because of the connection between religion, heritage and country. But for people with no direct connection, I cannot understand how what is happening in Gaza seems reasonable or justifiable.

And that isn't "blaming Israel for the woes of the Middle East". That's recognising that at the moment Israel have the power to stop this. And they won't because Netanyahu has to show he has "eradicated Hamas" or lose face.

At this point I can't even see that he'd stop even if the hostages were all released, as he's built the narrative of how much of a threat Hamas are to Israel so strongly.

@anotherlevel as has been pointed out on here a hundred times that is not a widely held view in Israel. There is the right wing. But there are also moderates and left wing.

Much like all Palestinians aren't Hamas.

I find the narrative that a ceasefire is impossible because Hamas are still firing a barrage of rockets into Israel a strange argument. What else is going to lead to cessation then?

Hamas have fired rockets consistently at Israel before October 7th. The iron dome is more than capable of and has dealt with rockets. Risk to citizens of Israel from those rockets is low. Lone wolf and organised terror attacks are used by Hamas instead, that's where the high risk to Israeli citizens lies. Israel seem to think that to complete their aim of removing Hamas from Gaza, it gives them the right to engage in a war on the population of Gaza as self defence. Hamas don't have any aircraft, they don't have any tanks, they don't have the weaponry needed to engage in combat with the IDF so they go to war on the population of Israel. This is where the lack of moral clarity becomes problematic to me as where is the difference? Both are committing horrible acts on the population. It doesn't matter about intentionality. Stabbing people to death in their home isn't measured as worse on the moral Richter scale than dropping a bomb on people's heads in their home. They are still dead. In 103 days there are still Hamas operatives firing rockets at Israel, instructing lone wolf terrorists and potentially organising the next group attack. Do we even have a count of how many Hamas operatives have been removed? The destruction of Gaza in 103 days hasn't reduced the risk to the Israeli population at all. The continuation of the current military plan isn't going to reduce that risk realistically is it? All that is happening is adding more risk onto two populations. It's a terrible strategy.

What else is going to lead to cessation then?

I think regime change in Gaza as a start to a new rebuilding and peace process, with an interim period under an agreed international coalition.
There aren't any long-term solutions that I can see that involve Hamas. How can there be, now?

I would love to see the senior Hamas leaders agree to hand over power in Gaza in order to end the bloodshed.

Do we even have a count of how many Hamas operatives have been removed?

From what I'v read a few days ago, about 9000. They're managed to get quite a large number of the senior Hamas figures now too. If I come across a relevant link I'll post but not going to trawl back and look now.

Hamas is guilty as hell. They started this war and did it in such a monstrous way that Israel had no option but to respond. Why did Hama commit such grotesque tortures on Israeli citizens? Obviously they were trying to provoke a war in the hope of escalation and other countries coming to their aid.
The Israeli war aims are to destroy Hamas as well as the tunnels under the city. And they want their hostages back. And they want to ensure that nothing like the October attack ever happens again.
They are not at fault in trying to achieve these aims. Hamas could aim for peace by freeing the hostages and ceasing their own missile raids on Israel. But they won't because they haven't achieved their own war aim of fomenting war throughout the Middle East so that Israel will be destroyed.