ICJ: SA Genocide Case vs. ISR - part 2

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

1st thread is full - here comes part 2!

Correct. Attached is BBC which uses "mishap" in headline suggesting its THEIR own word but NOT in the translation of Netanyahu's words.

The other is AP News.

It may be the case that something else explains what happened which could be any number of things. For example, shrapnel from the strike on a legitimate target (Hamas members) could have hit a nearby fuel container which then caused the fire with resulting fire surge. In that kind of situation, that doesn't qualify as a war crime.

At present the full circumstances is not known.

Remember also that areas cannot be rendered immune from military operations by the presence of protected persons under IHL.

I feel so much better about those children getting burned alive now.

At least they were burned alive legally, in one person's opinion. Their parents will be delighted.

@ConnieCounter and that's if their parents are alive too

And we are all so caught up in our emotional protestations, we are unable to critically analyze anything, so must be condescendingly and repeatedly told off, lest we be taken in by misinformation. What did you do today? Why I tackled disinformation online!🤔😏

Sometimes I feel like asking is the disinformation in the room with you right now?

Please do quote where I actually stated EVERYONE was caught up in their own emotions they are unable to critically analyze anything?

Precisely!

That argument wasn't made. 🧐

Let me be clear that the pain, physical and psychological, of those civilians who were killed and injured in the incident will be with them for the rest of their lives.

Of course, it will and I understand that in more ways than one. I sympathise with them.

That does not tell us whether the aforementioned military action was legal or illegal under international law.

As I have stressed repeatedly, we are not in possession of the full facts and full circumstances is not known to us as yet.

The question of law is a very different thing and that's what has been discussed. Law is not the same thing as people's emotions, feelings and perceptions.

I will not apologise for being able to look at different issues without being overly dominated by an emotional response. This ability is largely a result of experience of conflict.

Let's not misrepresent people's arguments or build Strawman Arguments. 🤷‍♂️

That would be reasonable if we were not looking at the facts of what happened, but we are. Israel is not denying what they did. So I'm not sure what you are waiting for.

On the information available and by using our brains we can make an estimation as to what has happened. If Israel had not bombed a refugee camp I'm sure they would have said that by now. They haven't.

Bombing a refugee camp is a war crime. One of many committed by Israel.

Please don't pretend that everything you post here isn't biased in favour of your support for the Israeli state. You are arguing in favour of the slaughter of children, saying that it is reasonable if it is somehow legal. You might think that that is clever and logical but we'll have to disagree on that.

You're tying yourself up in knots to justify the unjustifiable.

You don't have to state it DownNative it's very clear from your style of posting, it's condescending and comes across as superior. As if you know better than everyone else. You often argue things that people have not brought up.

This is not a personal attack you are obviously extremely clever and your posts bring interesting counterpoints, but you don't know any of us, what we do, what contacts and information we have off and online.

Really?

I made it very clear in my post a few back that SOME people attend protests having been convinced by fake videos and so on.

Definitely not all.

It would be extraordinarily weird if absolutely NONE of those who attend protests weren't convinced by fake footage.

Additionally, I think you'll also find that I didn't even reference a single member of Mumsnet. On the contrary, I spoke in general terms about possible motivations of SOME people who attend the London protests.

So, thank you for making the point you can't back up your own assertion with screenshot evidence of my post. Circular reasoning doesn't work as I'm sure you know too.

This has been going on since 2021, investigation due out. Will not surprise anyone Revealed: Israeli spy chief ‘threatened’ ICC prosecutor over war crimes inquiry | Israel | The Guardian

" The former head of the* *Mossad, Israel’s foreign intelligence agency, allegedly threatened a chief prosecutor of the international criminal court in a series of secret meetings in which he tried to pressure her into abandoning a war crimes investigation, the Guardian can reveal."

According to accounts shared with ICC officials, he is alleged to have told her: “You should help us and let us take care of you. You don’t want to be getting into things that could compromise your security or that of your family.”
One individual briefed on Cohen’s activities said he had used “despicable tactics” against Bensouda as part of an ultimately unsuccessful effort to intimidate and influence her. They likened his behaviour to “stalking”.
The Mossad also took a keen interest in Bensouda’s family members and obtained transcripts of secret recordings of her husband, according to two sources with direct knowledge of the situation. Israeli officials then attempted to use the material to discredit the prosecutor.

Thugs. It's insane that people treat Israel like a civilised state when they behave like this.

I haven't read the full article yet. I will when I have time later.

I will state here for clarity that reality is not the same thing as perception and perception is not the same thing as reality.

Rather than looking at the facts of what happened which IS scarce, you're making a series of gap filling assumptions and misrepresenting what the Israelis are saying.

Misrepresenting myself too since I have not argued that I'm in "favour of slaughtering children"!

There is always unintended civilian deaths in war. That's why IHL doesn't demand zero civilian deaths, why IHL states civilians are not protected under certain circumstances and why IHL states that areas cannot be rendered immune from military action by the presence of civilians.

A very different argument from the one you're claiming I made.

On the contrary, I'm not tying myself up in knots and have stated plainly none of us are in full possession of the facts.

But you appear to be tying yourself up in knots, hence your continued Strawman Arguments amongst other things.

Article in Haaretz on the strike in Rafah.

Opening paragraphs:

”It was reported on Monday afternoon that the Israel Defense Forces did not expect or estimate that civilians would be hit in the strike on Rafah. Such a disingenuous announcement can only be issued to consumers of the same media that for seven months has been hiding the unbearably difficult figures and photographs of toddlers who were killed or injured in every Israeli strike on the Gaza Strip. Such a statement can only persuade Israelis that this time too, the targets of the strike and the kind of munitions selected were scrupulously chosen by the Shin Bet security service, Military Intelligence and the IDF.

It's very possible that Israelis who don't support Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu also would like to believe that this time, he was completely sincere when he said that this was a tragic mistake. It's also very possible that they won't suspect that he referred to it only because of the recent order to halt military operations in Rafah issued by the very International Court of Justice in The Hague that's hanging over his head and the heads of the Israeli judiciary.”

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-28/ty-article/.premium/the-only-ones-who-still-believe-israeli-armys-latest-reports-on-rafah/0000018f-bfa5-df6b-a3ff-ffaf75350000?gift=f1600bfbf4474074a22828a31c871e4c

https://thecradle.co/articles/top-eu-official-accused-at-icc-of-complicity-in-gaza-genocide

Statement from the Lemkin Institute, which works to prevent genocide:

The Lemkin Institute has had it with the cynical lies and propaganda from Israel and the USA. One can have different views about the definition of genocide, but one may not use definitional disputes to deny genocide. If a genocide may be occurring, every nation is compelled by customary law to try to stop it.

Let us be clear: Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. The US is complicit in genocide. These are not political statements. They are statements that are made from knowledge and experience. Nevertheless, you do not need a PhD , a law degree, or X-ray vision to see the genocidal dimensions of Israel’s carnage in Gaza. It is clear in the behavior of the state and its military, on full display in yesterday’s horrific bombardment of a Rafah camp.

But even if there were legitimate doubts about Israel’s genocide, there is no doubt that Israel is committing atrocity crimes of the most barbaric kind. Israel must be stopped. Israel must be stopped now.

We are disgusted by Western leaders, especially in the USA, Germany, and the UK. They have demonstrated not only that they don’t care one bit about genocide prevention and human rights, but also that they are willing to allow an ally to commit atrocity crimes while they offer material and diplomatic support. It is reprehensible and the individuals involved in this gaslighting campaign should be deeply ashamed. They should also be put on trial.

Humanity has a choice: Either we decide that our children can all be killed whenever a superior force alleges that “terrorists” are among us, or we decide that under no circumstances will we allow these superior forces to lay waste to our world any longer.

We each must choose and act accordingly. The watershed moment is now. ^^ (2) Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention on X: "The Lemkin Institute has had it with the cynical lies and propaganda from Israel and the USA. One can have different views about the definition of genocide, but one may not use definitional disputes to deny genocide. If a genocide may be occurring, every nation is compelled by t.co/KTZrbACgyW" / X

Took them a bit to join! I’m quite disappointed with my government tbh and many of the things they’re allowing

https://apnews.com/article/spain-israel-icj-genocide-case-67d4d9b8ecf6fd88e718319a5d93465a?taid=66617bce10e4d0000103cce5&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter

Better late than never

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240910-south-africa-says-genocide-case-against-israel-will-continue-to-file-memorial-next-month/amp/
South Africa says genocide case against Israel ‘will continue’; to file memorial next month

a poster in another thread has also posted this
https://www.axios.com/2024/09/09/israel-gaza-icj-genocide-un
Scoop: Israel asks Congress to press South Africa to drop ICJ genocide case

Good on South Africa, the threats against them felt like some sort of Mafia shakedown!

Chile, invoking Article 63 of the #ICJ Statute, filed a declaration of intervention in the case concerning Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip (#SouthAfrica v. #Israel)

https://x.com/CIJ_ICJ/status/1834553552439582976

Monday (October 28) is the deadline for South Africa to submit a detailed memorial against Israel to the ICJ, lawyers and diplomats told Al Jazeera. Its legal submission aims to definitively establish that Israel’s military actions in Gaza amount to genocide.

aje.io/xpkaz5

aje.io/xpkaz5

South Africa has filed its Memorial to the International Court of Justice (ICJ) today, 28 October 2024, in its case on the Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip (South Africa v. Israel)

https://x.com/PresidencyZA/status/1850926384333398455

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/14/united-nations-special-committee-israel-gaza-genocide