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Conflict in the Middle East

ICJ: SA Genocide Case vs. ISR - part 2

949 replies

HeidiInTheBigCity · 15/01/2024 07:50

1st thread is full - here comes part 2!

OP posts:
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Parkingt111 · 18/01/2024 07:51

I don't understand how anyone can defend the way Israel has conducted this war, even if you do believe that Israel has the right to defend. I do believe that too but this has gone far far beyond self defence. They have pushed almost the entire population to smaller and smaller pockets of areas in the south where they are now dying from disease and malnutrition. And they are still being bombed in those 'safe zones'! Overnight there has been further air strikes in rafah. Children are being killed whilst sheltering in their tents. It is absolutely inhumane and indefensible.
I certainly will not defend the actions of Hamas, and I also won't defend this method of retaliation where every day over a hundred civilians are being killed. It's as if their lives mean nothing

Parkingt111 · 18/01/2024 07:55

US secretary of state Antony Blinken told Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu that there is no military solution to Hamas and that the Israeli leader needs to recognize that or history will repeat itself during his last trip to the Middle East, the US broadcaster NBC has reported citing anonymous US officials.
Netanyahu was reportedly unmoved. He also rejected an offer by Saudi Arabia to normalise relations as part of a Gaza reconstruction agreement if Israel agrees to provide Palestinians with a pathway to statehood, the officials said.
The Biden administration is reportedly increasingly frustrated with the Israeli prime minister and is laying the groundwork for a post-Netanyahu government with other Israeli and civil society leaders.

Efacsen · 18/01/2024 08:17

@Parkingt111 well said - and I'd add to that list of indefensibles severely damaging the field hospital provided and in part staffed by Jordan

Saw an estimate yesterday of $15 billion* to re-build just housing in Gaza ie not including roads, hospitals, schools, mosques etc etc

Qatar who has been the source of major re-building funds in the past is also conditioning future monies on being involved in the peace agreement and 2 state solution

Tho' expect Netanyahu wouldn't give a fig if the surviving Gazans lived in tents for the next 100 years with no modern amenities

*this seemed a bit low to me considering it cost £1 billion to re-build London Bridge station but not my field and it's going to be very cheap housing?

SomeCatFromJapan · 18/01/2024 08:21

The Biden administration is reportedly increasingly frustrated with the Israeli prime minister and is laying the groundwork for a post-Netanyahu government with other Israeli and civil society leaders

Can't disagree with Biden on this actually.

Parkingt111 · 18/01/2024 08:26

@Efacsen thanks, I have also seen reports that Israa university which the IDF had occupied and were using as a base in Gaza has been blown up today.
I would assume its extremely cheap basic housing. I'm also wondering where they will discard of all the rubble from the damaged and bombed buildings
I saw a video of one neighbourhood that was destroyed yesterday, il see if I can find it and I was shocked at the damage. How long will it take to rebuild and in the mean time how long will they continue to live in tents. So many babies are dying from hypothermia

Parkingt111 · 18/01/2024 08:31

This is the Tal el hawa neighbourhood which is right next to Al Aqsa university. Al Aqsa university has also been bombed. The damage is so severe that even the buildings that havent been flattened but damaged cannot be structurally safe to live in

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2Mu0NUqXUE/?igsh=MTNuZWczb2d1NXNkYg==

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2Mu0NUqXUE?igsh=MTNuZWczb2d1NXNkYg%3D%3D

Efacsen · 18/01/2024 08:50

The humanitarian aid does contain winter clothes, and blankets - and medical aid contains 'space blankets' specifically for treatment of hypothermia but isn't getting to the pregnant starving women and neonates - who can't even be counted as so hard to reach

No idea what happens to all the rubble and damaged beyond repair buildings that need to be demolished - suspect it's a very long job - years ago I saw pics of Beirut before and after the re-building and it was remarkable what had been achieved over 15-20 years

$15 billion divided by 400,000 [no of homes destroyed] = $37,500 but some of those 'homes' were tower blocks

Efacsen · 18/01/2024 09:11

Useless fact which may interest @Parkingt111 Tel al Hawa on the outskirts of Gaza City is also the site of the bricks and mortar Jordanian Hospital [out of action] which started out as a field hospital in 2008

Parkingt111 · 18/01/2024 09:17

Efacsen · 18/01/2024 09:11

Useless fact which may interest @Parkingt111 Tel al Hawa on the outskirts of Gaza City is also the site of the bricks and mortar Jordanian Hospital [out of action] which started out as a field hospital in 2008

Ah that makes sense when I was looking up the jordanian hospital, one of the links showed it at Tel al Hawa. But then I realised that was a different Jordanian hospital

Efacsen · 18/01/2024 10:09

Parkingt111 · 18/01/2024 09:17

Ah that makes sense when I was looking up the jordanian hospital, one of the links showed it at Tel al Hawa. But then I realised that was a different Jordanian hospital

Foxed me too until I realised that the Jordanian Hospital in Tel al Hawa was going by 2 names

It's also another sad reflection on what happens to the large amounts of re-building funds provided by neighboring countries who like Jordan aren't particularly wealthy

Rangelife · 18/01/2024 16:48

Thanks for the 9,000 figures @SomeCatFromJapan that's so interesting - the early figures about Hamas Capacity said 25K at best. 1,000 terrorists approx were killed or captured on October 7th, 9K killed. So 15k remaining, unless they have recruited since (very, very likely). Do you think the Isreali plan is to keep going until all Hamas personnel are gone, I am not sure militarily that's going to work but I understand that might be the feeling?

My friend sent me a really graphic video today of a Palestinian woman who had an injury to her left eye. It looked like her eye was gone but that could have been swelling or scarring - it was so so infected and painful looking and I think she was telling the camera man that she hasn't been able to clean the wound or source any antibiotics for it but I only gathered that from her non verbal comms - I don't speak arabic.

I agree with you @Parkingt111 and @Efacsen that nobody can really defend either sides conduct in this war (exactly the same as they should not defend Hamas conduct on October 7th and with the ongoing hostages). If you are not only injuring civilians but then purposely ensuring that they can't access aftercare for injuries and you are restricting access to medical aid, food, water and shelter what else is that but torture? If you are also restricting access to crossings for them to leave you are not only defending yourself, you are controlling a populations movements and ultimately placing yourself in the role of oppressor.

Babyboomtastic · 18/01/2024 17:51

Rangelife · 18/01/2024 16:48

Thanks for the 9,000 figures @SomeCatFromJapan that's so interesting - the early figures about Hamas Capacity said 25K at best. 1,000 terrorists approx were killed or captured on October 7th, 9K killed. So 15k remaining, unless they have recruited since (very, very likely). Do you think the Isreali plan is to keep going until all Hamas personnel are gone, I am not sure militarily that's going to work but I understand that might be the feeling?

My friend sent me a really graphic video today of a Palestinian woman who had an injury to her left eye. It looked like her eye was gone but that could have been swelling or scarring - it was so so infected and painful looking and I think she was telling the camera man that she hasn't been able to clean the wound or source any antibiotics for it but I only gathered that from her non verbal comms - I don't speak arabic.

I agree with you @Parkingt111 and @Efacsen that nobody can really defend either sides conduct in this war (exactly the same as they should not defend Hamas conduct on October 7th and with the ongoing hostages). If you are not only injuring civilians but then purposely ensuring that they can't access aftercare for injuries and you are restricting access to medical aid, food, water and shelter what else is that but torture? If you are also restricting access to crossings for them to leave you are not only defending yourself, you are controlling a populations movements and ultimately placing yourself in the role of oppressor.

The 9000 figure isn't hamas fighters killed though, it's the number you get when you subtract women and child deaths from 24000. Israel are calculating it on the basis that ALL ADULT MALES are Hamas. Clearly that's a really unfair assumption to make, and not going to be anywhere near accurate.

If they are 'trying' for 25000 adult males dead (ie the 15k more you mentioned), then that would mean over 83,000 dead overall.

This madness needs to stop.

Rangelife · 18/01/2024 18:01

Wow, thanks for that update @Babyboomtastic I am knee deep in work so didn't do any critical analysis of that figure or how it was measured.

So let me get this straight, if that's their measure, that all males over X age are counted as Hamas, with no verification of their actual affiliation with Hamas and the intended intention is to 'get rid of Hamas' are they intending to detain or kill all males that fit that demographic in Gaza?

Efacsen · 18/01/2024 18:25

@Babyboomtastic but the other important figure to take into account is the number of people missing buried in the rubble which is another 9000 or so

If you then count all the missing as Hamas then there are ordainary men in the 25K dead?

Babyboomtastic · 18/01/2024 20:29

Efacsen · 18/01/2024 18:25

@Babyboomtastic but the other important figure to take into account is the number of people missing buried in the rubble which is another 9000 or so

If you then count all the missing as Hamas then there are ordainary men in the 25K dead?

You know how bonkers this sounds right?

The figure the IDF have given for Hamas has always, since the very beginning, been a 30% rate. The number of adult men killed has also always been about 30%.

Even taking into account the 30% of those trapped in rubble that are likely men, that would still mean that the IDF thinks that 76% of men are Hamas. Bonkers.

The idea that ALL of the trapped area Hamas is an insane proposition. Like all other casualties in Gaza they are mostly children, women and the elderly. Toddlers dying of starvation, thirst and bleeding to death alone.

AdamRyan · 18/01/2024 20:32

Well. Or it's a betrayal that they think all adult men in Gaza are Hamas. Some of the Israeli government do talk like that anyway as the SA evidence showed.

ssd · 18/01/2024 22:43

I can imagine the IDF have to include anyone they can think of to make up the inflated number of killings that they say are hamas fighters. There's no way IDF are going to come out of this saying 'well we didn't kill as many as we'd hoped' . I doubt Netanyahu would let that happen. This needs to be seen as a huge victory for him, before the US get rid of him.

anotherlevel · 19/01/2024 10:53

www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/1/19/israels-war-on-gaza-live-us-support-for-israel-ironclad-despite-rebuff

This won't bode well for Israel's defence.

Efacsen · 19/01/2024 12:27

This is a bit long but think it's worth posting in full as Actionaid is an independent charity - their evidence closely supports what the allegedly biased UN reports

Essential aid including food and medical supplies are being prevented from entering Gaza, says charity Actionaid, criticising “confusing and arbitrary rules about the type of aid permitted to enter Gaza”. The charity says it is resulting in thousands of essential items being stopped at border crossings and prevented from reaching those who desperately need it, as well as increasing the time spent on screening trucks, leading to a backlog at the border.

“It is incredibly frustrating that crucial aid is being prevented from entering Gaza when we know the level of need has soared to a staggering high,” said Ziad Issa, head of humanitarian policy at Actionaid UK. “We now face a farcical situation in which mere miles separate warehouses teeming with rejected but vital items like food, shelter kits, and medical supplies, and desperate people who are starving and in pain.”
Issa called for more “clarity, transparency and consistency in the aid screening process”, saying that the duty of all parties in a conflict to ensure the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian relief for civilians is enshrined under humanitarian law. She criticised the inspection process of aid as “too slow”.

Oxygen cylinders, anaesthetics for hospitals and stone fruit are among the items rejected during inspections say Actionaid. Stone fruit is being refused entry under the explanation that the stones could be used as bullets or used to plant trees, said the charity, who had also heard that tent poles were being turned away.

“Ultimately, even allowing more aid into Gaza will do nothing to stop dozens of deaths and injuries from airstrikes each day, which is why we will keep demanding an immediate and permanent ceasefire,” said Riham Jafari, advocacy and communications coordinator at Actionaid Palestine. “Problems with distributing aid will continue until bombs stop falling and it is safe and practically feasible to reach people in need at scale,” he added.

Frequent communication blackouts – such as the one Gaza has been experiencing since 12 January – have made coordination even more difficult, said the charity. “Aid workers inside Gaza, including our own staff members, are utterly exhausted and under immense pressure to coordinate aid distribution, despite facing the same hunger, loss and trauma as the rest of the population,” Actionaid wrote in a statement published on Friday.

BelleHathor · 19/01/2024 14:45

A group of Swiss citizens filed/submitted criminal complaints (alleging crimes against humanity) against Isaac Herzog the Israeli President, who was in Switzerland yesterday. Though Herzog flew back to Israel last night the authorities will still investigate the allegations submitted in 3 different Swiss cities.

Regardless of the eventual outcome, I salute these individuals, proving that despite Governments failing to act, citizens will try to uphold humanity.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/swiss-prosecutors-say-criminal-complaint-filed-against-visiting-president-herzog/

HeidiInTheBigCity · 19/01/2024 14:58

BelleHathor · 19/01/2024 14:45

A group of Swiss citizens filed/submitted criminal complaints (alleging crimes against humanity) against Isaac Herzog the Israeli President, who was in Switzerland yesterday. Though Herzog flew back to Israel last night the authorities will still investigate the allegations submitted in 3 different Swiss cities.

Regardless of the eventual outcome, I salute these individuals, proving that despite Governments failing to act, citizens will try to uphold humanity.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/swiss-prosecutors-say-criminal-complaint-filed-against-visiting-president-herzog/

At least some of the complaints actually include "genocide" and "war crimes" as well as the already mentioned "crimes against humanity".

Source: I know some of the people involved personally

Now, to be fair, this is not about to lead to legal success - and the people involved know this perfectly well. At the end of the day, their primary purpose is to execrise pressure on Swiss authorities and to gain attention - the latter goal has been a resounding success, with this having been headlines all over the place, including Aljazeera English.

OP posts:
BelleHathor · 19/01/2024 15:32

HeidiInTheBigCity · 19/01/2024 14:58

At least some of the complaints actually include "genocide" and "war crimes" as well as the already mentioned "crimes against humanity".

Source: I know some of the people involved personally

Now, to be fair, this is not about to lead to legal success - and the people involved know this perfectly well. At the end of the day, their primary purpose is to execrise pressure on Swiss authorities and to gain attention - the latter goal has been a resounding success, with this having been headlines all over the place, including Aljazeera English.

Edited

🤝🙏 Send them love and thanks, it gives hope and applies pressure. If they won't/can't be arrested then make them think twice before travelling to certain countries.

This isn't an overnight fight it's a long haul.

The next Generation coming up that will staff these institutions, will hold these people accountable. They have seen live in 4K that the rules surrounding justice that we taught them were sacrosanct do not apply equally.

Parkingt111 · 19/01/2024 15:39

@Efacsen that is absolutely appalling but sadly not surprising. Netanyahu said yesterday quite openly that Israel is only allowing the bare minimum aid in, to avoid a humanatarian crisis.

Seeing as not long ago Israeli officials were still maintaining that there isn't any sort of humanatarian crisis in Gaza, then I have no idea what his definition of one is and it now makes sense why so little is getting in.

Answering a question about humanitarian aid, Netanyahu says that Israel is only allowing in the absolute “minimum” amount necessary to prevent a humanitarian crisis.

EasterIssland · 19/01/2024 18:41

Indonesia is taking Israel to court as well (independent case to SA)

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1748346008696676364

Mexico and chile request criminal wars to be investigated. (In Spanish the source)
https://twitter.com/HoyPalestina/status/1748124596870492496

anotherlevel · 19/01/2024 19:14

EasterIssland · 19/01/2024 18:41

Indonesia is taking Israel to court as well (independent case to SA)

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1748346008696676364

Mexico and chile request criminal wars to be investigated. (In Spanish the source)
https://twitter.com/HoyPalestina/status/1748124596870492496

Good on them. I'm glad people are having the courage to do this.

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