ICJ: SA Genocide Case vs. ISR - part 2

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

1st thread is full - here comes part 2!

As I stated earlier, I just don't think the interim ruling was in any way surprising so not a huge amount to discuss until the final ruling.
It's got nothing to do with who "won", it's not a sports event.

I largely agree with the summary in this tweet.
https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/1750924794768535582

Canada comments:

January 26, 2024 - Ottawa, Ontario - Global Affairs Canada
The Honourable Mélanie Joly, Minister of Foreign Affairs today issued the following statement:
“Today, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) delivered its response to South Africa’s request for provisional measures in their case against Israel.
“Canada supports the ICJ’s critical role in the peaceful settlement of disputes and its work in upholding the international rules-based order.
“Our support for the ICJ does not mean that we accept the premise of the case brought by South Africa. It is for the ICJ to make a final decision on the case, which it has not done today. We continue to follow the case very closely.
“Canada will continue to support Israel’s right to exist and defend itself, in accordance with international law. Nothing can justify Hamas’ brutal attacks on October 7, including the appalling loss of life, and the heinous acts of violence perpetrated in those attacks, including sexual violence.
“Canada remains deeply concerned about the scale of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the ongoing and serious impacts on Palestinian civilians. Canada continues to support urgent international efforts towards a sustainable ceasefire. This cannot be one-sided. Hamas must release all hostages, stop using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and lay down its arms.
“Parties to any conflict must protect civilians and respect international law. They are obligated to allow and facilitate the rapid and unimpeded access of essential humanitarian relief for civilians. Humanitarian access must urgently be increased and sustained in Gaza.”

From that tweet:
It ordered Israel to take steps to prevent and punish incitement to genocide against the Palestinians. This has been a genuine problem in Israel and must be addressed (16 votes to 1).

How can this person say there is no genocide, but there is incitement to genocide?

How can this person say there is no genocide, but there is incitement to genocide?

The incitement is from the extreme right-wing nutters in Netanyahu's coalition with their inflammatory statements, but I don't think there's any suggestion that the IDF have acted on it, it's not like they'd be taking direct orders from random politicians.

SomeCatFromJapan you say it’s not about winning then post someone who says it all about Israel winning? 😕

I'm not sure I buy that, some of these statements have come from members of the war cabinet. It's pretty serious they've been told it's incitement to genocide.

It's obviously a very fair judgement by the ICJ though as both sides think they "won".
Now let's hope the Israelis do change tack as a result. It will be interesting to see if their western allies stop supplying arms

No it’s not a sports event. You know who will win from today’s verdict.? Palestinians who won’t die if Israel stops killing indiscriminately and protects civilians lives as ICJ is concerned that genocide might be committing. That for me it’s the win on today’s verdict.

SomeCatFromJapan you say it’s not about winning then post someone who says it all about Israel winning?

I wouldn't necessarily have phrased it quite like that if I'd been the author of the tweet, admittedly.

From what I’ve read many people in Gaza don’t feel like they won as they were hoping for an immediate ceasefire. I wonder how many children will die or be orphaned tonight.
Still, no matter how much the Israeli government might want to pretend its business as usual, the cracks are there.

Aren't some of them ministers in the government though? They're hardly just random nutter politicians. They're in the government. At the cabinet table presumably.

It's more than I was honestly expecting. I'm cautiously optimistic, since this didn't get thrown out, that we may have grounds for a full investigation to manifest later down the road. If that isn't something to make certain leaders sweat, then really it does come down to knowing international law is a sham, always has been, and was always just a cudgel to bash over lesser nations when they don't know their place.

You see I wonder what Israel winning and Gaza losing looks like, I mean to most people hasn’t Gaza already lost? The academic stated winning in Gaza and not winning against Hamas btw.

Gallant is Likud though - and: was the subject of protests when BN tried to let him go. He was promptly re-instated!

And yet, his "human animals" statement was singled out today by the ICJ. He, personally, reacted accordingly (as would I, I suppose??? I mean: no idea, nobody has ever accused me of inciting a genocide ... because: I just would NEVER!)

John Kirby doing a White House Briefing, he's on at 32mins. Not as smooth as usual.

@HeidiInTheBigCity that's really why I'd like to wait for the full verdict, as I'd expect the court to examine the evidence properly.
What I've read to date suggests that Herzi Halevi and Netanyahu don't exactly get on or see eye to eye but how that has tranlated operationally I obviously have no idea and that will be for the ICJ to determine.

Nope - the court judgment specifically identified that the genocidal statements were by those in the heart of government, not fringe actors - for example:

• President Herzog
• Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister of Israel
• Israel Katz, Minister of Energy and Infrastructure of Israel

(see pp 19 - 20 of the judgment)

Likud is composed only of frothing at the mouth right-wing authoritarians.

People defending them are along the same likes of those who think the EDL should have a fair crack of the whip of governing in the UK. They just don't see it because of other blinkers, namely how we're all supposed to back up Israel on everything they do because they're so beautiful and true and can do no wrong, unlike the hateful Arab nations, cruelly surrounding them and continuing to exist.

Even most pro Israelis think Likud are arseholes tbf.

Fair point - though courtesy of the court, we can say 'frothing at the mouth genoicde inciting authoritarians'

The most important thing is that I Israel complies, there will effectively be a humanitarian pause that will save innocent lives. If so, I hope it also creates a chance for successful hostage negotiations and opens a space to move forward generally. Well done South Africa !

If Israel complies...

President Herzog post judgment: "Hague Shmague"

Netanahyu pre judgment: "Nobody will stop us — not The Hague, not the axis of evil and not anybody else".

i hope - but doubt - they will

Bad news on that compliance thing given Israel and the US reckon Israel just got exonerated of any wrong doing today...

EDIT: Also forgot that The Hague Act is a thing in the US, which may apply to Israeli folk too.

Incredible mental gymnastics from you “ignore those nutters over there - they’re just part of the government” Doesn’t wash does it? The whole world is seeing through this abhorrent facade.

People outside of Israel who support Israel like to push this false narrative that those calling for the destruction of Gaza and the expulsion of Palestinians are just “fringe nutters” ie a few bad apples amongst an otherwise balanced and reasonable majority. They keep pointing to Netanyahu’s unpopularity. The reality is Netanyahu is unpopular amongst Israelis not because most Israelis give a shit about Palestinians, or how this war is impacting a potential peace process. He’s unpopular because of his internal reforms, his corruption charges, the perceived security/intelligence failures around the 07 Oct attacks and of course his inability to return the hostages.

The reality is that many of the genocidal views of Netanyahu’s government carry widespread support amongst a significant proportion of the Israeli public which over the years has become more and more right wing. They believe Gaza (and the rest of Palestine) is their God given right and the Palestinians should be driven out. These people that some MN posters argue are on the “fringe” are not a minority anymore. Those who are unfortunately more of a minority are on the Israeli left, who actually favour a peace deal and a two state solution.