ICJ: SA Genocide Case vs. ISR - part 2

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

1st thread is full - here comes part 2!

They are hostages. They are being detained. Clearly they cannot speak freely, and how clean and healthy they look is frankly irrelevant. Per today's ICJ ruling, they should be being released, not paraded.

No thoughts on the people of Gaza? That was the main thrust of the case.

The ruling didn't surprise me in any way. I didn't think that it would be dismissed per Israel's wishes, and I didn't think it would rule for an immediate ceasefire. I don't think most people could disagree with wanting civilians protected as far as possible in a conflict.

@ConnieCounter You are seeing an attempt to spin the narrative to an Israeli win. I don't know whether it is ignorance or a deliberate misunderstanding of the ICJ ruling.

Hamas cannot be ordered to do anything by the court, as

1. They are not a country;
2. They are not signatories to the Genocide convention and
3. They are not even party to this case.

The Operative Clause (the one with legal effect) is contained in Paragraph 86 of the ruling:

(1) By fifteen votes to two, The State of Israel shall, in accordance with its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, in relation to Palestinians in Gaza, take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article II of this Convention, in particular:
(a) killing members of the group;
(b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and
(d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(2) By fifteen votes to two, The State of Israel shall ensure with immediate effect that its military does not commit any acts described in point 1 above;

(3) By sixteen votes to one, The State of Israel shall take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip;

(4) By sixteen votes to one, The State of Israel shall take immediate and effective measures to enable the provision of urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance to address the adverse conditions of life faced by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip;

(5) By fifteen votes to two, The State of Israel shall take effective measures to prevent the destruction and ensure the preservation of evidence related to allegations of acts within the scope of Article II and Article III of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide against members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip;

(6) By fifteen votes to two, The State of Israel shall submit a report to the Court on all measures taken to give effect to this Order within one month as from the date of this Order.

Cue posters jumping in to say they were coerced and whatever they have said are lies.

I take this back as they're probably on another thread talking about us on this thread.

It is a massive result considering how the Western governments of the US and UK have supported Israel in this. We didn’t get the full call for a permanent ceasefire, but this lays down a lot of legal groundwork to build on.

The charge of genocide against Israel is now a plausible case and its allies are also subject to potential prosecutions too. Our government now has to think very carefully on arming, aiding and abetting Israel. As does the US administration.

Civilian deaths and withholding aid deliveries will have to stop immediately, Israeli armed forces are now under immense scrutiny of any further actions.
It’s a start, I think we have a bit more hope than we had this morning.

Have any of the UK government spokesman made statements yet ? Have I missed them ?

Here's Bidens entirely predictable 'take'

US says it still believes genocide allegations against Israel 'unfounded'

The US has said today’s ruling of the international court of justice was consistent with the Biden administration’s calls for Israel to minimise civilian harm, increase humanitarian assistance and address dehumanising rhetoric, a US state department spokesperson has said.

The spokesperson said:
We continue to believe that allegations of genocide are unfounded and note the court did not make a finding about genocide or call for a ceasefire in its ruling and that it called for the unconditional, immediate release of all hostages being held by Hamas.

@Efacsen I can find no evidence of that statement being made today by an unnamed spokesman. Except in The Times of Israel. All other stories are just copies.

I think we may have to wait for an Official statement.

Be interesting what elements of the ruling are stuck to?

While I am not going to defend the parading, please note that the ruling "calls for" but does not actually impose the immediate release of hostages.

This is, first and foremost, a matter of formalities: since Hamas is not party to the case and is also not a state, and given that the ICJ can only impose measures on a) parties to the proceedings, and b) only has jurisdiction re. states, the call to release them is not, in fact, part of the ruling but an appeal.

That said, of course they should be released - yes, including the soldiers. As should Palestinian prisoners.

@moosmama1 those women are soldiers. They are PoW not hostages. Hostages are civilian.

The provisional measures are the bits that have to be stuck to. The case is against Israel so it is Israel that has to do the sticking to the ruling.

I'd also like to see the release of hostages, detainees, prisoners of war from both sides.

Ultimately that is not what this case is about. This case is about genocide of Palestinian civilians.

I think we should be able to recognise that there is suffering on both sides and that both need to stop. The Palestinians and Israelis are both suffering.
One of my friends has now lost multiple members of her family due to the impact of Israeli air strikes. Nobody will know their names and there won't be many who will mourn them. They will just be another statistic which don't seem to matter as much, even the children. It's a miracle that she is alive herself.
Today's ruling, although didn't call for a ceasefire, was still significant because the judges believe there is a case to be made and there is plausibility on a genocide taking place. It means something to the innocent Palestinians, that there was a country who cared enough to take a stance for them, whilst they can't do it themselves. And it gives some hope to all those who have watched in horror and despair at months of indiscriminate killing and violence, that the world is finally waking up to the suffering of the Palestinians.

@Parkingt111 I'm so sorry for your friends loss, I can't imagine what she is going through.

Sorry for lack of paragraphs and typos!
And thank you to South Africa.

EU statement:

We take note of today's order of the International Court of Justice on South Africa's request for the indication of provisional measures.

The EU reaffirms its continuing support to the International Court of Justice, the principal judicial organ of the United Nations.

Orders of the International Court of Justice are binding on the Parties and they must comply with them. The EU expects their full, immediate and effective implementation.

The right of each Party to submit arguments in respect of jurisdiction, admissibility or the merits remains unaffected by the today's decision on the South Africa's request for the indication of provisional measures.

I am impressed that the EU statement has been past so many lawyers that it does not mention Israel or genocide.

It was an interim decision. Nobody won and nothing happened.

It was typical of any interim ruling because the court doesn’t have all the information it needs. It basically takes some measures out as a precaution.

Courts dislike making any decisions without all the relevant information. It would be detrimental to do otherwise.

All of the information in this case is not discoverable until the end of the war.
Israel has a legal right to self defence and no one is disputing that. Genocide requires intent and the fact that Israel (like any other country) does have this right does negate this genocide at least in part. Therefore it is not possible for the court to find the whole war is a genocide and neither is anyone making such a claim.

The only thing being considered here is whether some acts or many acts are beyond the realms of self defence. So they have been cautious, not ordered a ceasefire, but ordered some interim orders. They also recognised the right to self defence. They recognise the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the number of casualties.
They have allowed the military operation to continue but asked Israel to facilitate more humanitarian and medical aid into Gaza.

It also had some more obvious and odd conclusions. That Israel had to stick to Geneva convention as all countries are required to and that Hamas should release all the hostages. (Which is strange given Hamas are not part of ICJ jurisdiction as it’s not a state). Both of those conclusions are somewhat political.

No slam dunk. More of a theatre whatever camp you are in.

I completely disagree with your statement with regard to the women but I respect your opinion. Am going to stick to the thread topic.

I don't think the self defence argument is as clear cut as you're making it out to be in this case. Israel is an occupying power and Gaza isn't a state. I don't remember self defense being mentioned in the judgment but you can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Well, that’s one way to interpret it.
The other may be
1 - the case was NOT thrown out - so Israel has a case to answer- they are concerned enough to explore this further - the IDF could be committing genocide - and don’t destroy the evidence
2- not enough is being done by Israeli government to get aid to Palestinians in Gaza- do better!
3- not enough is being done by the Israeli government to protect innocent Gazans from being killed - do better!
4- regarding 2&3 above - report back in a month to show what you have done
5 - not enough of has been done to those who sprout genocidal rhetoric within the Israeli government and their representatives - honestly this is a no brainer 🤔

As a matter of fact: a previous, non-binding ICJ opinion - that one pertaining to the Wall (or, as Israel likes to call it: "security fence") in the West Bank concluded that the argument of "self-defence" was irrelevant and would not be considered because Israel controlled the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the international law rules on self-defence were therefore irrelevant.

In other words: the non-binding ICJ opinion sums up as "the right to self-defense does not apply when you are the occupying power".

Something did happen, and many governments (and some citizens) around the world were watching it happen.

That isn’t ‘nothing’.

I wonder what will be said in private!

It seems very quiet over here all of a sudden

@AdamRyan Very quiet indeed. Perhaps the ruling is too hard to argue with? Unless you want to go the unhinged route of pretending Israel won...

... in the meantime, the permanent representative to the UN of the state of Israel on X/Twitter:

Today's decision of the International Criminal Court at The Hague is completely disconnected from any reality on the ground and will not deter us from achieving our goals - the elimination of Hamas and the return of all the hostages. We have not forgotten the terror, the trauma and the victims of October 7. We will fight until all our goals are achieved - and we will win!

... I suppose, on the upside, at least they understand that they have been shown a yellow card by the ICJ. On the downside: the insane levels of arrogance of what boils down, essentially, to "everyone else is wrong - we are right! We will do whatever we want!"

I hope the ICJ takes notice!

Edit, link: https://twitter.com/dannydanon/status/1750868609734267166