Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

@Desertrose2023 and I addressed that too.

I hope Mossad do carry out targeted assassination and I believe that's why Hamas has been asked/ told to move from Qatar to Algeria.

@LolaSmiles well at least you have acknowledged that.

stomachameleon
Thank you.

I think where people feel strongly for one side or another it can be very easy to assume that anyone with opposing views is somehow awful.

I've seen similar approaches posts from people I know who have aligned themselves with the Palestinian side, but have shown themselves to be quite foolish on my opinion with the content they share that goes beyond concern for Palestinian people. Their ignorance shows in some of what they share and they seem awfully keen to present any recognition of Jewish concerns as pro-IDF which is hugely wrong and problematic. It's a massive problem when people are more concerned with their side being right and avoiding challenge/deflecting to the awful actions of the other side than a good faith discussion.

Across a range of conflicts, I've often questioned the idea that an ideology can be bombed out of existence and that will make things peaceful. Just a quick look at recent history seems to suggest that such approaches breeds more fear, more hate, creates more trauma, and more minds ripe for radicalisation.
People are free to disagree with this point of view but it's not a position I hold on this conflict alone.

Err no. “Ceasefire” in reality only means Israel stops firing. The Gazans were firing rockets at Israeli cities about 15 minutes into the last ceasefire (the one for hostages to be released) so that’s how long they lasted at a ceasefire. October 6th and prior was also a ceasefire period throughout which Palestinians fired hundreds of rockets at Israel. On October 7th Gaza (with allies including Hezbollah in Lebanon) fired so many rockets they overpowered the Iron Dome. The rocket attacks on Israeli citizens are a constant.

The rocket attacks on Israeli citizens are a constant.
And they are morally wrong too.

This is why there needs to be a proper move towards peace, with global leaders and organisations stepping up, because it isn't going to materialise from several more years or decades of this.

@LolaSmiles I saw a video that was being shared on social media that just made me feel such despair at the situation and also the harsh reality.

I won't post the video but it is the aftermath of a airstrike. There is chaos and a young teenage boy covered in dust and blood is shouting. He is saying my mother and sister has become martyred and I don't complain. But let Netanyahu know that she leaves behind three sons who will come after him. He is shouting and holding back tears, full of rage. When I read concerns about a whole generation becoming radicalised, I remember that boy and how he would be such an easy target for those who are seeking to recruit and exploit.

The cycle needs to break. The Palestinians need their own state and they need a life worth living. So that other children like this boy, will realise that having the opportunity to make something of his life, is a better way to honour his mothers memory than a life seeking revenge

@whattheactualfrog Many thanks. I thought the frequency would have increased because of the war in Gaza, but from what you say it's the same level every day. A ceasefire is bilateral, but I don't know what means the UNSC has to enforce it.

Parkingt111
I've seen something similar shared and have exactly the same concerns.

The idea that in conflicts Country A flattening Region B would bring about peace is ludicrous and unless this is acknowledged and the endless cycle of trauma, harm, death, hatred is acknowledged then the cycle isn't going to stop.

Acknowledging this is going to feel uncomfortable especially for people who have strong feelings of loyalty to one side or the other, but if nobody is willing to feel uncomfortable and make moves to peace, there's just going to be generation after generation repeating what their side have told them and promoting hate towards the other side.

Average civilians are not going to be safe until that cycle is broken and the longer it goes on, the wider the consequences will be felt around the globe.

@LolaSmiles it seems a far reality right now and I don't even know how it would happen. There are so many uncertainties and hurdles but the first step would be to acknowledge it atleast.

And yes you are not alone in saying this.
In the last two days I have seen some of the strongest words by UK MP's.

This is from the former UK defence secretary
The Israeli government’s “killing rage” in Gaza poses a threat to the country’s moral and legal authority and will fuel the conflict for another 50 years
“Going after Hamas is legitimate; obliterating vast swathes of Gaza is not. Using proportionate force is legal, but collective punishment and forced movement of civilians is not.”

@LolaSmiles it seems a far reality right now and I don't even know how it would happen. There are so many uncertainties and hurdles but the first step would be to acknowledge it atleast
That's how I feel too, but acknowledging it has to be a step. You can't break a cycle if people are invested in continuing the cycle and maintaining their side is the right one.

What good comes from people being so aligned to their cause that their knee jerk reaction to criticism or challenge is to deflect to the other side, engage in whataboutery, abandon good faith and charity in discussions or try to avoid the uncomfortable discussions altogether?

At the risk of getting completely flamed all over again, I think global powers need to be taking some responsibility for the current situation. There's been decades to sort this situation out peacefully and many attempts along the way, but when it's come within touching distance it's back to square one again.

A belated thank you @Parkingt111 I appreciate your compassion, I’m really sorry people you know in Gaza are affected and here’s hoping for an increase in empathy and that things do get better. It is hard and it will be hard but I believe they can.

It will absolutely feel uncomfortable, achieving peace is hard, negotiating with your enemy is extremely difficult. It took years to bring the different sides together in Northern Ireland and it could have failed many many times. It was not easy to work with those who had a part to play in killing your community. It took a lot of strength for the Queen to shake the hand of Martin McGuinness but she knew how much that would mean to the nationalist community and those gestures matter.

I do think Israel is a long way off from this and Hamas at the moment can not be trusted, they are also not a centralised power so agreeing something with them such as a ceasefire will not mean all their members (for want of a better word) would comply. It is hard to know how much control "the Hamas leaders" have. Israel though do need to bring in a neutral entity to help them broker peace and to identify who they can within Hamas make any reasonable progress with. But like I said it is hard and it will take time but agreeing a ceasefire is the first tentative step. I don't think they have any other option tbh.

Dulra
I agree with you. It's why my position hasn't changed on this conflict.
Bombs and military action is not going to bring about peace.
People who hold hateful views are not going to stop holding those views if enough bombs are dropped.
Groups who hate another group of people and wish them harm are not going to stop being full of hate if enough bombs are dropped.

Unless the cycle stops, the harm will continue and continue and continue, each time more civilians will be killed and traumatised. Different leaders on each side will come and go, new groups with new names will appear with the same hateful ideology.

Like you I think there needs to be some neutral involvement from global organisations to broker peace and it's going to take time.

And I’ve reported you to Mumsnet.

The poster clarified what she meant when challenged. We are meant to be grown ups on this board and should be able to challenge each other directly if we believe someone has said something inappropriate. You are not a moderator.

what you are doing is intimidating another person and trying to censor protected speech and legitimate debate.

Hear hear

Thereissomelight Desertrose2023
Thank you.
We should be able to discuss and disagree and clarify without having things twisted.

Some people will believe that harmful ideologies can be eradicated with military campaigns. That is their right to hold that position.

Others do not believe that adherents to harmful ideologies will stop having harmful beliefs and goals if enough bombs are dropped. That is their right to hold that position and does not indicate agreement with the harmful ideology.

It's not unreasonable for someone to take either of those positions on any conflict and it reasonable to expect discussion and disagreement to be in good faith.

Report away. I have the right to my feelings and to report - just like everyone has.

I felt intimidated and threatened by that post. Suggesting that harm may happen or will not stop harm to Jewish people due to Israeli military action is not appropriate for MN in my opinion.

I’m not denying your feelings but was that the best way to deal with it? Is this what it’s come to now where posters are reporting on each other to external bodies?

I used to take comfort from coming here - it’s a community of people and I found solidarity in posters who shared the same views I did. Even the posters I strongly disagreed on this conflict I usually came away either having learnt something, even if it was something about myself and my own reactions.

now though, I question whether it would be better if MN just closes this Conflict board permanently. Half the posters think antisemitism is rife and the other half feel frustrated and harassed.

Even the posters I strongly disagreed on this conflict I usually came away either having learnt something, even if it was something about myself and my own reactions
Same here. I've found some interesting resources, including resources from positions I wouldn't have necessarily seen otherwise.

What I find even more is that I feel stronger now than I did before that the way to peace and the way to tackle terrorism and hate is not bombs and military action. I don't believe you can break generational cycles of hatred with military campaigns. I don't believe that people who are filled with hatred towards certain groups and have a well-documented desire to harm certain groups will change their minds because of a bombing campaign.
I've also come to the conclusion that unless people on all 'sides' and none are willing to feel uncomfortable and put civilians first, there's no route to peace.

Mumsnet agreed with you the post has been deleted. That however doesn't deal with the issue of posts been screenshot and shared to an external body to make a complaint about. It sets a bad precedent. We need to trust the mumsnet moderators to carry out their role effectively and if we don't we should not be posting here. We have all signed up to the site, mumsnet has our contact details they should be the people we direct complaints to not external bodies. If something like that happens again I for one will no longer be posting here.

What exactly will these external bodies that people are sending posters comments going to do with them? What's the plan?

I agree but unfortunately I don’t believe it’s an isolated incident, others have referenced doing the same earlier in the thread. This poster was just honest enough to tell us what she’d done in real time.

anyway I’ve shared my thoughts on this now and won’t be commenting again on this thread.

CST are far more experienced in dealing with antisemitism than Mumsnet so no I don’t agree. Where I see blatant antisemitism I will also report it to them, same as the pp. In the same way if I saw something I thought was criminal I would report it to the police I wouldn’t check with Mumsnet first.

CST meticulously records incidents of antisemitism and charts trends. They also have initiatives to try and combat antisemitism, and they report directly to the police if necessary. The fact that Jewish people and organisations have to do all this should appal people more than it does.