Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

My understanding is that the 2006 elections were for the whole of the occupied territories. There had been concerns about Fatah corruption for sometime and they were unpopular in Gaza.

Hamas was encouraged to run in the elections having not shown any interest previously in governing Gaza. They had a reputation for doing some good wrt to public services and we're perceived as being more honest than Fatah.

The elections were overseen by Jimmy Carter who reported that the elections had been fair. Hamas won a majority and then there are conflicting reports about what happened next which lead to violence and Hamas ultimately seizing power in Gaza and Fatah, there is plenty of blame apportioned to different groups. When Hamas won Hillary Clinton is reported to have remarked "we should have rigged the election".

There have been no elections since and given that the voting age in Gaza is 18 it means that no one under the age of 34 could have voted for Hamas. Someone who has the data, time and inclination crunched the numbers and calculated that a maximum of 14% of the Gaza population could have voted for Hamas.

Coincidentally just before the start of the war there was quite a comprehensive survey done in Gaza and views on Hamas were mixed, their popularity depended on which issue was being asked about. I thought it was published in the Times but can't be sure.

The reported increase in their popularity now is entirely predictable. There are many examples in history where "terror bombing" has been carried out to undermine civilian morale and it never works, no matter how awful the government it just tends to make civilian populations more determined to endure. The bombing of Dresden, Hamburg etc didn't make the Germans rise up and overthrow the Nazis, it actually increased their popularity and the resilience of the German people.

@mollyfolk On this thread? You're right, I wouldn't call you antisemitic for saying that and I'm genuinely sorry that you were - you come across as someone posting in good faith and looking for constructive engagement (I'm pro-ceasefire FWIW).

However, if your post did not stand in isolation and you'd been incessantly blaming Israel for the current conflict and refusing to acknowledge Hamas' role in it, I'd think you have a bit of a problem with Jews. Similarly if you minimised the rape, torture and mutilation of Israeli women, and kept passive-aggressively shouting "alleged" before every mention of "rape" then I'd think you're a bit iffy. If you were calling Jews "genocide supporters" for simply trying to give facts or balanced perspective, or because they identify as a Zionist, I would think you were prejudiced against Jews. If you liked to use the word Zionist as a pejorative or as code for Jew, then I'd think you either have no idea whatsoever what a Zionist is (and so shouldn't be using the word anyway) or are an antisemite. If you tried to tell Jews what does and doesn't constitute antisemitism, told them "cries" of antisemitism bore you or are a "smear", I'd probably ask you if you'd speak to any other ethnic minority like that for calling out racism. If you were turning up to every thread going where there's an obvious Jewish presence to goad and derail, or followed Jewish women over to their own MN board to spy and harass, then yes, I would seriously avoid engaging with you, just like I have with many posters on MN recently, because I'd think you're a raging antisemite. Mocking Jews because they're admitting to being scared of antisemitism in this country, well, I have no words for that and I've seen it happen very frequently on these threads. I'd never dream of mocking a Muslim for being scared of the increased Islamophobia in Europe.

Sorry, I know you didn't want a rant @mollyfolk and I'm absolutely not accusing you of any of the above. Just trying to highlight how repetitive accusations, behaviours and microaggressions from some posters reveal patterns of hostility and hatred towards Jews, and to us are just as bad as the more explicit 'I hate Jews' variety of antisemitism. It's just a trope now when folks are constantly shouting 'criticism of the Israeli govt is not antisemitism' when for the most part Jews are not saying it is, and we're just tired of pointing out what actually is antisemitism.

Any kind of racism is a red line for me and I've always called it out towards other minority groups, so as someone Jewish the hatred towards us has hurt a lot.

@plusjamais brilliant....

@FOJN think we are both referring to the Princetown study - bits of it were published in the Guardian too

Really, so you think the Palestinians did not functionally elect Hamas?

Another post that tries to excuse Palestinians in voting in Hamas. Whilst they might not have had elections since, the Palestinians definitely voted and elected Hamas. It's irrelevant whether Palestinians knew or suspected Hamas might be a terrorist government at that time - the fact is that you stated they were not elected by the Palestinians!

It's this sort of stuff that is what causes problems on these sorts of threads.

What I post:
Hamas are a terrorist organisation who, despite being elected in 2006, have not held elections since and have openly said they have an issue with Jewish people beyond the current conflict. They don't get to hide or legitimise themselves as a state in my opinion. We either call them a terrorist organisation or we acknowledge them as a state the way we do when speaking about North Korea or other extreme and oppressive regimes.

Reply:
the fact is that you stated they were not elected by the Palestinians!

Post that Hamas were elected.
Get reply accusing you of denying they were elected.
🤦‍♀️

LolaSmiles · Today 17:37

Not to me because today’s Palestinians did not functionally elect Hamas.

Some did and many still support them. That's why there has been no coup or uprising or revolution which tends to happen in times of deep dissatisfaction.

Or are you going to roll out the old chestnut that Israel is making them support Hamas

Well the current conflict does appear to be increasing support for Hamas, yes.

I imagine it works the other way too. Probably there are people in Israel who are more hawkish now than they used to be.

Some did and many still support them. That's why there has been no coup or uprising or revolution which tends to happen in times of deep dissatisfaction

Why is it that according to this thread Israel citizens can’t be held responsible for their governments actions (and indeed that would be antisemitic) but the Palestinians have to explain their lack of armed uprisings?

Because the Israeli government are apparently very unpopular but they haven’t had any coups.

Thank you, I think you are right.I've read so much I can hardly remember where I've seen everything.

The opening paragraphs of the Reuters article linked on the previous page are pretty shocking to me:

Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.
The Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research (PCPSR) findings were published as international alarm grows over the spiralling Palestinian civilian toll in the Israeli counter-offensive against Hamas, now in its third month

floodlightonwhatisright

I'd not doubt there's some support for Hamas within Palestine. Very few people would say otherwise.

The issue on this board is that some people are so ideologically wedded to their cause to the point they will put words in people's mouths, argue night is day/day is night, and get into huge amounts of whataboutery is a problem.

It starts to come across like deliberately moving the goal posts: you can talk about it, but not like that, or that, ok you've said A but I've decided what you actually mean is B so I'm going to criticise you for saying B. But you do really mean B. Now you've illustrated why you don't mean B let's find a tangential point to get drawn into

It's the endless bait and switch on these topics that is designed to hinder what is an entirely reasonable discussion about a country's foreign policy and war decisions and the actions of a terrorist group.

I have not changed my mind from what I have read on here.
I stand strongly with my convictions, will stand up for myself and stand with the wise gentleman that wrote this piece:

https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/how-october-7-taught-me-that-jews-need-to-stand-up-for-themselves-xfjbc209

Plus one.

floodlightonwhatisright
That's an excellent article and it's disgusting that the writer was targeted in that way
I suspect we would differ in our views on the conflict, but I wholeheartedly support him in his stand against being harassed for the actions of an overseas government.

@floodlightonwhatisright this is a genuine question that I have asked before but I haven't really got an answer to but maybe you might. Although if you don't want to feel free to ignore.
Also if anybody else wants to answer I would be very interested in hearing your responses.

So on most of these threads I hear time and time again that many Israelis do not like/support/endorse Netanyahu and many of his policies and polls seem reflective of this too. However in regards to the tactics and actions in this war led by Netanyahu that has garnered almost world wide condemnation, I don't see much criticism for it and in fact alot said in defense.
Is it because you support the actions or see them as justified or is there any other reasons?

If my wording or question is out of turn then let me know and I will ask mumsnet to delete as it wasn't my intention

I'd be interested to know this too. I've seen a few posters ask similar but never really received an answer.

@floodlightonwhatisright I would like to clarify that ofcourse I know that there are Israelis and Jewish people outside of Israel with lots of different views and I am not trying to generalise. I tend to look at polls for a better picture but during the midst of the war its difficult to do so.

It's more specific for those who have expressed both views on here to criticise Netanyahu and want him more or less gone but support his actions in the war that i am finding difficult to understand the correlation

I'm not Israeli but my thoughts on this @Parkingt111 are:

I dislike Netanyahu and his politics (I am a Labour voter in the UK). I think some kind of peaceful solution is a long way off but will be easier if his party is no longer in government. I also believe any other country would have justifiably launched a similar attack on any terrorist group who had carried out a similar attack on their own soil and people.

I hate the scenes coming out of Gaza. It shouldn't be necessary to say this but I do. I also believe that the release of hostages the other week would not have been possible without the military action in Gaza.

7th Oct has shaken me to my core as a half Jewish person. It has changed everything for me. Prior to 7th Oct, I was fairly ambivalent about Israel. After the attacks of that day, and the antisemitism I have seen since then (no, I do not mean criticism of the Israeli government) I am more convinced than ever of the need for a Jewish homeland and of Israel's right to defend itself. I also believe that the long term solution is a 2-state one but that seems a distant dream (having seemed almost within touching distance in the 90s).

There is no simple right vs wrong, good vs evil in this. Anyone who thinks it is that easy is either an idiot or blinded by their own prejudice (on either side).

@Opalfru1ty thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and I know you said it goes without saying but I still do appreciate you saying that you hate the scenes coming out of Gaza.
Do you think if there wasn't some people questioning the need for a jewish homeland or for Israel's right to exist that your views would stay the same in regards to the government's response to the war?

@Parkingt111 Hope you don't mind if I answer this too although I'm also not Israeli. I do echo what @Opalfru1ty says.

I despise Netanyahu. I have always flinched at Israeli settler policy and the settler violence in the WB turns my stomach. I want the Palestinians there to be allowed to live in peace, and thrive, as I do for those in Gaza too, but that's clearly not going to happen for them anytime soon, sadly. I'm struggling over the current conflict because Oct 7 knocked the wind out my sails. It was grotesque and I can still barely compute what happened on that day. It has made feel more connected to Israeli people (despite having no family there), and actually more ready to identify as a Zionist. Because more than ever I see how much non-Israeli Jews 'need' Israel and how much Israelis need to be kept safe.

I have always supported a 2-state solution and I am pro-ceasefire, because I can barely get my head round what's happening to Gazan civilians. But I'm also aware that a ceasefire without a subsequent peace negotiation is potentially leaving Israel open to a horror show, possibly worse than 7/10.

However, I'm devastated at the antisemitism emerging in the West, especially the UK and France. And the antisemitic rhetoric and hatred on Mumsnet has horrified me. So to be quite frank - and I think this is might more directly answer your question - I refuse to have 'jolly fireside Mumsnet chats' with these posters about what a hawkish, right-wing warmonger I think Bibi is, even though I abhor him and his politics. And let's just say I'm not seeing the IDF acting in a manner that could be described wholly as self-defense. But again, I'm not going to turn up to threads and discuss this with people, many of whom I believe are demonstrably antisemitic. So despite having relatively strong views on this appalling conflict, I tend to stick to chats about antisemitism rather than the war itself per se and have hidden a lot of the M.E. threads now. Because there's too much 'my side is right, yours is wrong'. Which inevitably brings hateful rhetoric, propaganda and conspiracy theories, and not enough nuance for a highly complex conflict. So maybe that helps answer why you're not seeing more criticism from some posters about the way the war's being conducted?

I'll also add, if more posters engaged respectfully like you, I'd find the discussions more constructive.

These are exactly my thoughts. Thank you for phrasing this in a manner that expressed my thoughts completely. It is very difficult to put into words.

I would like to echo that whenever I see a post by @Parkingt111 I feel like someone genuinely cares about all people in the conflict and beyond. I am so happy to engage with someone who has a clear opinion but is open to different ideas and happy to learn from others.

@Parkingt111 I can give you my view if it helps?

One aspect is media exposure; what we see and hear is different than you will see and hear, and the people we believe and trust are different, so what one side takes to be truth will be different to what the other side see as truth. The ‘real truth’ probably lies somewhere in between. People are not going to condemn what they see as propaganda or fabrications on either side.

additionally, I don’t think people really appreciate how deep the trauma from October 7th goes, or that October 7th was not a one and done event. We’re still living under threat and have done for a long long time. Hamas have openly said October 7th is a dress rehearsal. we are still being attacked with rockets daily in some areas (less frequently in others, there was yet another terror attack today (shooting at a family, baby and dad unharmed, mum lightly injured), and there are still thousands and thousands of refugees displaced all over the country.
Hezbollah keep firing on the northern border (and people have been killed), even though I think there is diplomatic pressure on them to deescalate, there is a real fear it will explode into a second front of the war, the houthis are very busy attacking ships and down South, and we’re still grieving our dead, dealing with the horrific aftermath of the injuries, and picking up the pieces, and there is a huge amount of national trauma.
You can’t underestimate the shock and trauma from October 7th, and the effect it has had here. The country is still reeling, the hostages are not all back, and we face very real existential threats. It’s a horrific horrific situation, and I wish to Gd we were not at war, but there is a strong belief that if there is a ceasefire, Hamas will take that as a win, and start building up to repeat October 7th. They’ve said they will, and we believe them. I don’t believe either Palestine or Israel will be free until Hamas are removed.

There is also a lot of historical trauma. I am from the UK but one branch of my family actually originates from Tzfat, living there for many generations pre 1949. My great grandmother described to me the massacre in 1929, her house set on fire, they were hiding inside, smoked out of the house, she ran into her neighbours and saw them dead, they had been stabbed to death, escaped and while sheltering in the British police headquarters a policeman shot and killed one of the survivors. It’s like my grandparents stories are repeated over and over again, in every generation. The decades since the holocaust are the longest we have had in centuries without big progroms.

to add, re Netanyahu, the instability of a change in government would be disastrous. It’s a coalition government, there were months of protests this year against the government, and so many elections in the last few years as no one got a proper majority, and to go through that again would be so destabilising. So I get why people are not calling for Netanyahu to go when things are unstable enough (although actually, some inside Israel are, I’ve had ads on my phone).

someone who I feel really gets it is elicalebon on instagram. She is an Iranian activist who hears and shares both Palestinian and Israeli voices, and has a deep lived understanding of the Middle East and has some really nuanced views.

@WibbleWobbleFlop ❤

I think it makes perfect sense that some Palestinians would support Hamas after what's happened.

Gazans are being starved and bombed to death and literally no one is lifting a finger to stop it. So they support the group who claims to look after them or fight for them or whatever.

Those in the West Bank see how the PLO have gotten absolutely nowhere doing things the respectable peaceful way. Palestinians are worse off than ever so why play nice with the Israelis? When settlers attack Palestinians in the West Bank the PLO can't show up to the scene to intervene and the IDF is told to protect only the settlers. I heard a former IDF commander say this today on radio.

I'm not saying I agree with any of this but I don't understand why the thread seems horrified by the idea of it. Maybe it's because I come from somewhere where we've had a conflict and understand how local communities cling to terrorist groups who protect them (or say that they do anyway) when the occupying forces are mistreating them/killing them in the street etc.

@plusjamais again thank you so much for answering. I'm sure you have seen from my many posts that I am very anti- Netanyahu and heavily criticise the IDF's actions in this war but I agree with most of what you have said so in essence we have very similar views but choose to express or not to express them for different reasons.
I think I mentioned it before that due to how intense this war has been it's difficult to discuss without it getting heated, but at the bare minimum it should not lead to any sort of anti-semitism or anti-Palestinian rhetoric or insults.

Most posters including myself at time come from a defensive stance, always on our tip toes for when the next attack will come.
So personally for me I feel that the Palestinians were more or less abandoned by the western powers especially at the start of the war. Which meant that if we the people didn't defend them then they would have no one and also for other personal reasons.

I'm very sorry for how you have been made to feel with the rise in anti-semitism and nobody should have to feel like that. And once again thank you for taking the time to answer