Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

@LeaveBritneyAlone "So where do you expect all the Jews to go?"

I don't expect them to go anywhere. They can stay and live amongst the Palestinians with equal rights for all.

Do you live in a fairyland?

How long do you realistically think that will last before they’re driven out by hate and terror? You should never approach this from a place that any country wants to live peacefully with Jews. They don’t. Anti-semtism is ever growing. Why can’t Jews have ONE country they will be safe in? There are still Jews alive today who have been through the Holocaust. Why the fuck should they experience hate and exile again?

@LeaveBritneyAlone
But at the expense of thousands of innocent civilians eh?

was just reading the IDF have bulldozed people sheltering in tents in front of a hospital. desecrated mosques, graveyards, killed newborn babies and civilians at point blank range, dysentery and cholera on its way. :(

I don't think my core views regarding the long standing conflict have changed, however I can say maybe I have more awareness of some aspects that I didn't before. Anti-Semitism rising being one of them. And that Palestinian lives don't matter as much to some being another.

I always knew about IDF brutality but this war has really opened my eyes to the extent of it. I have truly been shocked to see how many people down play/minimise/excuse the horrific suffering and brutal ongoing onslaught of the Palestinians.
There's alot more but it will turn into an essay so il leave it as that

There was a small population of Jews which lived peacefully in Palestine even before their mass immigration from Europe following the Holocaust. They co-existed in peace with their Christian and Muslim neighbours for centuries and were afforded many freedoms in the Ottoman Empire, so I don’t think this argument is justified. Additionally, if you research the Balfour Declaration, then it was actually created in order to limit the immigration of Jewish people to Western Europe, so they were then welcomed in Palestine and took advantage of that to terrorise the Palestinians and British soldiers, and create Israel. Israel was actually founded on the murder and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and the terrorist Irgun and Haganah groups became part of the IDF.

I don’t know how anyone can justify creating another genocide due to suffering from genocide themselves. I think Zionists have lost any higher moral ground with this argument. The horrific images of men stripped to their underwear and being crammed into trucks elicits scenes from the Bosnian genocide and the Holocaust (which all British schoolchildren are taught about so that we do not allow this to happen again!) The wiping out of entire bloodlines in Gaza and indiscriminate murder of thousands of civilians, and trying to push them into Egypt is very reminiscent of what we were taught in History lessons as wrong!

So OP, Mumsnet hasn’t changed my mind-I’ve always been pro-Palestinian and have visited Gaza, Jerusalem and the West Bank a few times. I have seen the apartheid wall and the refugee camps from Bethlehem to Gaza. I have witnessed the Israeli police and soldiers violently arresting and beating Palestinian adults and children during their day to day lives-and this is as a tourist!

MN has opened my eyes to how staunchly pro-Zionist some people are, in that they will continue to support Israel’s massacre of Palestinian civilian men, women and children! And how they justify creating a Jewish homeland by persecuting and oppressing people from another part of the world, who did not play a part in the Holocaust. How they will ignore the previous 75 years of oppression of Palestinians and repeat false claims about Oct 7th, even when the Israeli spokespeople have debunked them themselves! And I think we’re past Oct 7th now, as the Israeli response has become so far from disproportionate that most countries have voted yes to a ceasefire at the UN. Israel has lost any legitimacy in continuing to use the Holocaust to justify its genocidal actions and ethnic cleansing.

I feel this way too.

I haven't changed my mind, but I probably qualify the situation more. I knew some of the history, a fair amount really, but I have learned more from these threads and from recommended links. I expected that the Israelis would react strongly. I was interested that Joe Biden made that warning right at the start about not reacting in rage. He didn't say it privately on a phone line. He said it in public where the whole world could hear.

It is impossible for me to go back to the UN map of about 1946/7 and make my own lines on it and then shake both lots up and say to them, "Now, even stevens and you damn well will live alongside one another peacefully."
I have lived through all of Israel's existence from 1948 and I feel that there were gentler administrations.

I have been saddened to realise how much anti-Semitism there is in the UK and the mainland of Europe, still? again?

I hold to what I said a long time ago, in a letter to a newspaper, about a different issue, all individuals are individuals and so not all Palestinians are supporters of Hamas and not all Israelis are pro Licud.

The whole thing since October has reminded me of other wars which I have seen on TV and heard about, including those men in the Balkans, behind bars and with their ribs countable because they didn't have enough to eat, boy soldiers in Africa trained to do unspeakable things to other human beings, and I have wondered how many children were wounded in Dresden and did not die quickly.

There was a small population of Jews which lived peacefully in Palestine even before their mass immigration from Europe following the Holocaust. They co-existed in peace with their Christian and Muslim neighbours for centuries and were afforded many freedoms in the Ottoman Empire

This is demonstrably untrue.

@upinaballoon it's interesting you mention Dresden. I was reading a article that I was able to for free on the financial Times that focused specifically on the bombs used in Gaza and the comparison with other places in terms of intensity.
One point mentioned was in history there has been some bombing campaigns that are simply remembered by the name of the place ie Dresden and that Gaza will probably be remembered like that too

To answer the OP: I am.half Jewish and was not brought up to follow any religion. Prior to 7th Oct I was fairly ambivalent about Israel - I vaguely thought it was needed as a Jewish homeland but didn't give it much thought.

7th Oct and the subsequent reaction and antsemitism - much of which, i have to say, has been on MN - has changed everything for me. I would describe myself as a Zionist now. I think the need for a Jewish homeland that is able to defend itself is stronger than ever. I hate Netanyahu, I hate what is happening in Gaza but Israel must br allowed to defend itself.

As for the UK, well the scales have really fallen from my eyes. Scratch the surface and you find antisemitism lurking - it's been really quite frightening.

Mind you, I think I have changed my mind about the UN. I saw it as something powerful and basically good before and now I see it as more flawed. Yes, I know - it can only be a sum of its different parts.

@Olinguita As a member of the Jewish community, I appreciate your support and believe you that you do what you can to stop anti-Semitism. I also believe you that despite being pro-Palestine, you are anti-Hamas. Thank you for phrasing your post so eloquently and standing with all of those who are vulnerable.

I was fairly ambivalent before but have now moved very swiftly to support for Israel

the personal nature of the utter atrocity wreaked by Hamas. The details have disgusted me in a way that I didn't think possible

Israel is tiny in a sea of countries that don't think they have a right to exist. They have that right and have the right to protect their borders from murdering scum terrorists.

I've been turned too by the disgusting marches. Not one of them calling on Hamas to release hostages and have a ceasefire. The people on these marches, the placards, the chants. All disgusting

I've seen pictures of Gaza and see modern buildings, smart seaside resorts. Yet we just get to see the PR pics of rubble, because Hamas (the ones who run Palestine) are emboldened to produce as much disinformation as possible. And why not, people lap it up.

In my real life, people don't really comment much at all other than to criticise our first minister for letting personal factors influence where he send our money.

Lastly, the small cohort of posters on here who turn up on EVERY thread posting the same old crao, day after day. Even if I was still on the fence, they would turn me right off

Thanks OP for the opportunity to post

My opinion of the UN changed when russia invaded Ukraine and the UN could do. nothing.

Russia even had their monthly chairmanship of the UNSC

Can you please provide examples of the antisemitism you have seen on Mumsnet and in the UK? I live in Scotland and don't know any Jewish people personally so antisemitism isn't something that's ever been on my radar (anti catholic bigotry is far more prevalent here). I hope you don't think that by asking this question that I am denying antisemitism exists. I'm just not personally aware of it in my day to day life. I'm asking so I can be more conscious of it in future.

Not really. I think I have learned more about what’s going on from this board than by just watching/reading the news though. I have learned some things.

I haven't changed my mind but I think this latest escalation has shown rather glaringly that many people's views are based on faulty assumptions.

For example (I see this all the time on MN) that Israel is trying to steal the Palestinians 'ancient homelands' or commit a genocide. The truth is, before Yasser Arafat, the 'Palestinian people' didn't even exist. Palestinians are a mix of desert Arabs from the region of Palestine which for generations has been inhabited by Jews and Arabs. There are no 'ancient homelands', just a very, very long dispute going back to Biblical times when two half siblings got caught up in a family battle.

Likewise, many many Arabs and Palestinians live peacefully alongside each other in Israel and have done so for generations. The idea that Israel is a solo Jewish state is again a faulty assumption.

So no, my views haven't changed but I have been able to see clearly how many people have formed their own views. That's actually really helpful and if I get into discussion, helps me to find common ground. I don't think anything is achieved by all the constant warring on MN. Lots of ranting and very little listening.

For example (I see this all the time on MN) that Israel is trying to steal the Palestinians 'ancient homelands' or commit a genocide. The truth is, before Yasser Arafat, the 'Palestinian people' didn't even exist. Palestinians are a mix of desert Arabs from the region of Palestine which for generations has been inhabited by Jews and Arabs. There are no 'ancient homelands', just a very, very long dispute going back to Biblical times when two half siblings got caught up in a family battle

I think it’s more that the a lot of the people living in what is Israel were displaced and that the land that was meant to be Palestine ended up being in Israel (which is itself an “ancient homeland” remember).
The land has changed hands many many times over the centuries and no one group has a 100% claim on it.

Thank you for asking. Examples on MN and elsewhere on social media have included:

• describing Israel as a white, colonialist settler state
• denying that there is anything offensive about the slogan "from the river to the sea"
• denying or downplaying the actions of Hamas, including the fact that their stated aim is the murder of all Jews
• holding diaspora Jews responsible for the actions of Netanyahu's government
• tearing down posters of Israeli hostages
• the double standards applied to Israel when compared with other countries' military actions

There's more but I'll leave it there as i have a sandwich waiting for me.

Not changed my mind at all. I researched a lot of the history about 15 years ago after becoming part of a Muslim community where deep hatred of Jewish people was totally normal and acceptable. They ran the world, controlled all the money, caused all the wars, they should be wiped out etc. I hadn’t known anything about it before and after having quite a few arguments about it and getting no intelligent answers as to why they felt this way, I started reading up on it. I think there may have been another conflict happening there and it was on the news at the time.

In my view, Israel is the victim and Palestinians (and their backers) are the aggressors. It’s no wonder Israel has had to take a hard line after years of being declared war on 9 times, constant suffering rocket attacks, suicide bombings, stabbing rampages, kidnappings perpetrated on civilians etc. There could have had peace 75 years ago and both sides lived alongside each other in shared prosperity and safety. The Arabs were never going to allow that to happen. Totally bit their nose off to spite their face and then cry victim. It’s a religious war, not a land war and the fundamentalists running it cannot be reasoned with. They will accept no less than Israel’s annihilation.

It’s terrible that so many civilians have been killed but that’s all on their government, and they and their supporters (which seems to be a high proportion of the adult population) hold responsibility for that and should answer to their children for that.

The one thing I have changed my mind on is that I thought I could no longer be shocked at how downright dumb people can be and that anti-semitism is so widespread.

That so many people have fallen for the blatant terrorist propaganda campaign and false information by Hamas supporters (including a large amount on here!), denied and minimised the shocking large scale atrocities of October 7th, denied that these cuddly, friendly terrorist ‘freedom fighter’ murderers and their civilian supporters would actually be capable of rape and surely wouldn’t hurt children, rip down posters of kidnapped children, or that anyone can actually support supporters of these absolute scum of the earth. It has absolutely shocked me to the core.