Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

@whattheactualfrog but they do. Hamas has had many sanctions placed upon them and all the resolutions that the UN have been voting on include actions that Hamas must adhere to aswell not just Israel

@Parkingt111 do you think if that resolution passes then Hamas will release all the hostages? As is in the resolution?

@25milesfromhome thank you for your reply. I fell asleep and it got missed amongst the many messages after it.

This does not in any way diminish the magnitude of Palestinian suffering and the trauma inflicted upon them, I can find space in my heart and and my conscience for both.

I love this that you said and I think we definitely need more people who can empathise with all those suffering. I understand not wanting to share concerns on a public forum, I am similar to you in that aspect that I generally prefer to discuss with people in real life who are experiencing similar but it's still such a shame for what you are going through right now and I do pray things get better.

I haven't changed my mind. We need the current Israeli government gone along with Hamas and every western leader who has refused to condemn the bombing of innocent people in Gaza.

Can I add to that who has minimised, denied and excused the actions of Hamas on October 7 and who has refused to condemn Hamas?

@stomachameleon I should hope so. Hamas did say awhile ago that they will release all hostages if there is a full ceasefire. We were discussing on the other group how the US is objecting to the wording so depending on that I'm not sure.
However If a full ceasefire resolution passes then i can't see why they wouldn't and if they still didn't then i would think that other countries like Qatar, Jordan, Egypt, Russia etc would put pressure on them to do so

I’m not a military strategist but I really don’t believe this was the only way. The fact that the US have publicly come out and said they are pushing for a more “surgical” campaign means it’s possible militarily. This is one of the best funded armies in the world and is backed up by a superpower.
I also think the restrictions placed on food, water, medicine etc. was unconscionable in all circumstances but especially if the objective was truly to degrade Hamas’s ability to launch further attacks rather than punish the entire population.

Excuse me, but why would Israeli military action make radical antisemites want to harm Jewish people???

@Desertrose2023 so no ideas then?
The US are saying that after their own successes/ failures and the pressure they are under to say something. I don't believe their stance has changed at all though.

It's easy to say where Israel is going wrong but difficult to say what they should have done and let's face it they had to do something in light of what had happened and the threats to do it again.

What happens if there is a ceasefire and it happens again? It is a concern for Israelis and that has to be considered. There is always little on here about the continued rockets etc into Israel.

Of course there was a better way, imagine if Israel had behaved better towards the civilian population of Gaza, they would be in a much better situation now with the sympathy of every country and every Arab country as well. It simply is not morally right to kill and starve so many civilians in order to feel safer. The IDF have taken everything from the civilian population including their children. It is the cruellest thing to watch.

In what way would they do that?

Excuse me, but why would Israeli military action make radical antisemites want to harm Jewish people???

I didn't have a fixed position in my mind. I think it has been an absolute mess and I still can't marry to a hypothesis/strong opinion. I wrote this on another thread but will paste it here re what Israel should have done:

I think the Israeli military and administration have shot themselves in the foot with their response. The long term damage to their reputation internationally is significant (if the Genocide convention is invoked they will be internationally rebuked by the world court and support from the US will fade). There is now a very strong narrative that the Israeli government and military lie, even MSM are pushing back on the politicians sent to give updates and questioning the authenticity of their answers. Their own citizens are less safe and this has also decreased the safety of Jews around the world.

The Israeli government, on October 8th should have gone to the international community and said taking out Hamas is non-negotiable to us now after yesterday- would anyone like to plan our response with us. We are willing for the international community to take control of this operation/do it themselves/try their way, we're open to it. If you fail we will revert to our way by X deadline, and lethally remove Hamas with force from Gaza which means we displace 2.2 million and there will be significant collateral damage in terms of civilian deaths.

A safer way for ALL civilians - Isreali civilains, Isreali hostages and Palestinian civilians to take out Hamas may have appeared via international effort. Who could call for a ceasefire then if it was an international effort?

Saying 'We are the only democracy in the ME/we have been attacked/we have a right to defend ourselves/we are superior in intelligence and weaponry', combined with conducting a very shoddy propaganda campaign, refusing to rudimentarily follow the rules of engagement, giving an example of that by shooting your own hostages and the very visible and graphic 20k plus deaths filling our screen out of Gaza (as a result of military action) has positioned Israel governments as the aggressor. That lies with the Israeli governments incompetence and lack of foresight and basic care for others that sets apart 'democracies' IMO. Hamas triggered this by the disgusting events of October 7th. The first thing DH and I said was 'This will leave the world in no doubt about why Hamas were deemed a terrorist organisation and shut up the fallacy that they can be negotiated with'. That has been utterly lost in the preceding 11 weeks. It's tragic and compromises the safety of so many.

Stomachameleon clever people can come up with clever solutions. I think even on mumsnet there has been some suggestions. Firstly I would want to know why the warnings were ignored in the first place and why the initial response was so poor and what plans in place Netanyahu already had for Gaza. I would want to know all this first and then find away to make Israeli’s safer in a much more humane way.

Excuse me, but why would Israeli military action make radical antisemites want to harm Jewish people???

That's not what I said.

You, and other posters, do a very good job of taking what people say if they have a different perspective to you and twisting it.

What I said was:
If the Israeli government want long term peace and safety for their citizens then flattening Gaza, displacing huge numbers of civilians whilst their supporters say 'but it's actually Hamas' fault ask them' isn't going to get lasting peace and it certainly isn't going to stop groups of radical antisemites wanting to harm Jewish people

Very different to what you're claiming

But then on this thread it's possible to say Hamas were elected and be accused of denying they were elected. Some people are very wedded to their "side".

I don't believe (be it this conflict or others where extremist and terrorist ideologies are involved) that flattening civilian areas and mass military campaigns brings about lasting peace, nor do I believe it will reduce or remove the harmful ideologies. It creates more trauma, more terror and another generation ripe for radicalisation.

@Weddingpuzzle thanks that's helpful. I disagree with some of it... how keen however outraged countries were to get involved? Same the other way. Arab countries may be vocal about the response but have yet to do a lot.

@headstone that's just deflecting. I am sure Netanyahu will go and the response to intelligence will be looked at. Israelis will demand that. Like demanding it doesn't happen again.

Doesn't seem to require 'clever people' to regularly tell Israel where they are going wrong but come up with no concrete alternatives.

@LolaSmiles in all fairness you reposted and it's literally what you said.

@Weddingpuzzle
I think you’re right. And the fact that they never did this leads me to suspect that they hoped to clear Gaza and take it for themselves.

It is word for word what you said.

Plus worse - you said Jewish people instead of Israelis

Israel is under rocket fire at the moment... remember this.

It is word for word what you said.
No it isn't, which is why I've pasted what I actually put and will do again.

If the Israeli government want long term peace and safety for their citizens then flattening Gaza, displacing huge numbers of civilians whilst their supporters say 'but it's actually Hamas' fault ask them' isn't going to get lasting peace and it certainly isn't going to stop groups of radical antisemites wanting to harm Jewish people.

So I'll spell it out.

• If the goal is peace
• flattening Gaza and displacing civilians isn't going to get it
• and flattening Gaza isn't going to stop the groups of terrorists wanting to harm Jewish people

You can't bomb an ideology out of existence.
If you want to believe that's possible and that by magic when enough bombs are dropped then these radical terrorist groups will vanish then you're free to believe that.

Plus worse - you said Jewish people instead of Israelis
Yes, because last time I checked terrorist groups like Hamas had issue with the Jewish people beyond Israel and this conflict has far reaching consequences beyond Gaza and Israel.

Just a few days ago there were news reports of Hamas plans against Jewish people in Europe.

Or are we not allowed to acknowledge that Hamas and similar groups are antisemitic and have expressed hatred to Jewish people?Or are only certain posters allowed to say Hamas have far reaching antisemitic goals?

Some posters really don't seem to like people discussing that terror, military actions, and conflict tend to breed more terror and military action and conflict.

I am terrified! Did she clutch her pearls while she wrote this? Absolutely ridiculous.

Is that the normal level of rocket fire, or is it greater because of the war in Gaza? I suppose if there is a ceasefire, the rockets should stop - in theory.

Israel is famous for targeted assassinations. The Mossad has done them multiple times. If it really wanted to take out Hamas leadership and ability to rearm / funding it could do that. Instead it’s been propping them up for years to suit its purposes. As another poster said it could also have sought international support or some form of coalition for this action. It could also have complied with the laws of armed conflict.

What are your ideas? Or are you are supportive of the current way this campaign is being managed??

So I am going to spell out what the problem is.

Jewish people in the UK and globally are SCARED.
And your post is potentially FRIGHTENING to them.

Plus you have CHANGED the wording of your post when you were "spelling it out " from" radical anti-semites" to "terrorists "which is very different again.

So are radical anti-semites terrorists?

So I am going to spell out what the problem is.

Jewish people in the UK and globally are SCARED.
And your post is potentially FRIGHTENING to them.

I entirely understand why they would be scared.
The current conflict is frightening.
It's frightening is that there's a horrific terrorist organisation who hates Jewish people, regardless of their nationality.
It's frightening is that there's news reports recently saying that the terrorist organisation has planned to attack in Europe.

That doesn't mean people should not discuss the cycle of terror and violence that can perpetuate itself unless those with power do something to bring about peace for the welfare of ALL CIVILIANS.