Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

You can’t keep saying Israel is the only democracy in the ME and then pretending you think the Gazans voted for Hamas.

I mean, which is it?

Not to me because today’s Palestinians did not functionally elect Hamas.
That's my view, plus there's issues about statehood and recognition as a country Vs occupied territories, and the various factions around governance of Palestinian territories. People tended to speak of Isis/So Called Islamic State not Syria when discussing actions there by a terror group.

If Israel as a country was taken over by a terrorist group, I'd name the terrorist group.

Hamas are a terrorist organisation who, despite being elected in 2006, have not held elections since and have openly said they have an issue with Jewish people beyond the current conflict. They don't get to hide or legitimise themselves as a state in my opinion. We either call them a terrorist organisation or we acknowledge them as a state the way we do when speaking about North Korea or other extreme and oppressive regimes.

Israel is a democratic country and using a country's name to refer to the actions of a country's government is standard across a range of issues.

I've posted this previously, but I can't remember which thread. It seems relevant here though.

If Palestine wants to be a recognized state in and of itself (which I support), surely their leadership should be held to the same standards as all other political leaders worldwide? Hamas was elected in 2006. They're not new to governing a nation, so there is no excuse as to their constant failures to their people and blatant disregard to International Humanitarian Law. I understand that Palestine's political system is not democratic, so there is no blame from me towards Palestinian citizens.

In the case of the Israel/Palestine conflict, I think it's important to distinguish between Israel and the IDF just as we do Palestine and Hamas. Whilst one is democratic and the other authoritarian, they are both the representative leadership. By targeting criticism to the leadership, we avoid calls of anti-Semitism and anti-Palestinian rhetoric.

Really, so you think the Palestinians did not functionally elect Hamas?

Another post that tries to excuse Palestinians in voting in Hamas. Whilst they might not have had elections since, the Palestinians definitely voted and elected Hamas. It's irrelevant whether Palestinians knew or suspected Hamas might be a terrorist government at that time - the fact is that you stated they were not elected by the Palestinians!

Well, take a look at this Aljazeera link which I know is a paper that many posters trust which says amongst other things:

"Hamas wins huge majority

The Islamic group Hamas has won a huge majority in parliamentary elections, with Palestinian voters rejecting the long-time rule of the Fatah movement."

"Hamas supporters streamed into the streets to celebrate.

In the southern Gaza town of Rafah, supporters shot in the air and handed out candy. Others honked horns and waved Hamas flags from car windows."

"Half the seats in Wednesday’s parliament vote were chosen on a national list and the other half by districts.
"

So Hamas was certainly functionally and democratically elected.

Just like the Israeli government.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2006/1/26/hamas-wins-huge-majority

Really, so you think the Palestinians did not functionally elect Hamas?

Another post that tries to excuse Palestinians in voting in Hamas. Whilst they might not have had elections since, the Palestinians definitely voted and elected Hamas. It's irrelevant whether Palestinians knew or suspected Hamas might be a terrorist government at that time - the fact is that you stated they were not elected by the Palestinians!

This happened in 2006? 2006 was nearly 20 years ago?

@floodlightonwhatisright but it is 17 years since Hamas was elected. Probably the majority of Palestinians weren't old enough to vote then.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

@Molymoly do you not think most of the population support hamas? The latest poll seems to think they are well supported and nothing seems to indict that election wouldn't be replicated.

Of course they weren't. 60% of the population are under 24. You'd have to be in your late 30s now to have been old enough to vote in the last election. I'd say roughly 25-30% of the population are old enough to have voted and that's a generous estimate given only 6% of the population have made it over the age of 55. Everybody knows that at this stage but some people choose to try and ignore it to try and compare it with Israel who voted in a facist government only this time last year.

do you not think most of the population support hamas? The latest poll seems to think they are well supported and nothing seems to indict that election wouldn't be replicated.

Support for Hamas is certainly growing not just in Gaza but the West Bank too.
Still I’m sure it’s all part of Bibi’s brilliant plan..

It's almost like you can't kill off a terrorist organisation by bombing and starving everyone, leaving them believing that without any kind of military(Hamas isn't military I know but its the closest they have to an army) at all they would be even more vulnerable than they already are. If only someone had told Israel this in the beginning....

This is taken from the Times of Israel dated 13th December.

In Gaza, the terror group received 42% support, up slightly from 38% three months ago.

I would liken Palestine to Russia. Although Putin was elected in 2000 and supposedly has plenty of support in the polls, there is no way of knowing how much of this is due to government propaganda and suppression. Hamas was the elected governing body of Gaza but the electorate are disenfranchised in much the same way. We talk about the Russian/Ukrainian war, why not Palestine or perhaps more correctly Gaza/Israel rather than Hamas/Israel?

@OuiOuiKitty and I bet not 100% of those eligible to vote voted, so the actual % of voters would be low.

I didn't know that only 6% lived to over 55, that's shocking.

I have been called anti Semitic for a post saying that I was keen to let the UK government know that I don’t stand behind him while they support the Israeli authorities blatant disregard of international law. 🤷‍♀️ The poster said I was blaming Israel for the crimes of Hamas and that was anti semitic.

It’s quite simple.

Today’s Israeli citizens democratically voted for its government so we say “Israel”

Today’s Gaza citizens did not vote for Hamas as most of them weren’t of voting age or even alive when Hamas was last elected (indeed lots of pro-Israel posters here like to remind us that Israel is the only democracy in the ME) so we don’t say “Gaza” we say “Hamas”. It’s quite simple.

In current polls, support for Hamas has risen amongst Gazans because Israel has murdered thousands of Gazans and made 1.5 million of them homeless.
Also quite simple.

I'd be interested to know how that data was gathered given the current situation in Gaza - and not exactly from an un-biased source

I will try to explain it to you as I was responding to a poster saying that Palestine did not elect their own government. My response was to show that it did.

Reading the whole thread would be helpful before commenting - also, the argument that we have all seen so often on these threads is that there have not been elections since, the population is really young, etc, blah, but support is now 42 % for the current government Hamas and growing so come on! No excuses!

Or are you going to roll out the old chestnut that Israel is making them support Hamas!

There’s that too. How do you reliably poll starving families moving from place to place and living on the streets?

I try to be careful and say Israeli government but if I was to say Israel I’m referring to the authorities and not to ordinary citizens.

Who have no electricity to charge their phones. And are subject to regular total telecom blackouts

Plus I doubt they would have the cognitive ability at the moment to even answer a poll like that, when your traumatised, starving and in fear of your life how can you think rationally about anything. Would love to interrogate this poll, who was polled and what were there current circumstances

@Efacsen @Thereissomelight According to the Times of Israel the survey was taken largely during the recent truce. I was replying to the poster who said did i not think that most of the population supported Hamas. But it's less than 50%.

I'm doubting both figures @Molymoly because the ceasefire was 24th Nov to 1st Dec - so least a fortnight before the figures were published - and apart from the lack of bombing and more food for some, the population were still 90% displaced, with no regular access to electricity and still from the interviews I read in a highly distressed anxious state

A study from fairly neutral Princetown University the week before the 7/10 attack revealed a high level of dis-satisfaction with Hamas - 67% saying they didn't trust them and complaining about corruption wrt the distribution of food aid. And that was when life was okay

There are a lot of conflicting opinions on the level of support for Hamas. Here is another view:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

@floodlightonwhatisright but that was 17 years ago!! The majority of the voter population now aren't responsible for Hamas being in power.

Maybe this arguement being seen a lot on these threads is because it is a fact.

The rhetoric coming from the Israeli government and the actions of the IDF won't help.