Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

Agreed @WibbleWobbleFlop (re your second paragraph)

@EllaDisenchanted someone who I feel really gets it is elicalebon on instagram. She is an Iranian activist who hears and shares both Palestinian and Israeli voices, and has a deep lived understanding of the Middle East and has some really nuanced views.

Yes, she's on Twitter too. I've found there's quite a few Iranian women with really interesting - especially feminist - perspectives on the conflict.

I haven't really kept up with this thread but I'll agree that @Parkingt111 is always compassionate, measured and empathetic! It's rare and much appreciated by many of us.

@stormy4319trevor Agreed.

@EllaDisenchanted I definitely agree to you regarding the media exposure. Also the propaganda on both sides is very very strong. So I have seen at times when there has been an attack or a video circulating on social media. Then if I look at the accounts that are sharing these videos with what is happening, it is almost two totally opposite explanations. So in some ways I can see how social media has played a huge part in shaping views in this war and which Is why I have tried my best to stick to MSM. But with the absence of independent journalists in Gaza, at times I do check social media as its difficult to know more without it.

Also, we don't really hear much about how it's like for Israelis still under attack in Israel so that probably doesn't help either. Your story about what your grandmother told you sounds extremely scary and I can see the fear of why many are scared that these actions may happen again especially after the recent attacks.

I was speaking to one person in real life who told me that although they feel bad about what has happened, they feel that a greater value is given to Israeli lives than Palestinian ones which is why they are not as vocal about what the Israelis have suffered. I'm definitely not saying this is right and we should have empathy for all regardless of who they are but just one thing that was said to me that left me thinking about for awhile.

I do think that in some way the many world leaders played a part in causing this divide by immediately picking a side straight away, which caused much resentment. But that's just my thoughts and I could be totally wrong.

Can I also say that you are honestly one of the nicest people i have come across on mumsnet 💗

@EllaDisenchanted thank you for posting that. My family is under rocket fire regularly and I think it's hard to digest what life is like.

People are very selective about their history on here and how things actually came about. Things are not a one way street historically.

Most people I know are not fans of Netanyahu but now is not the right time and there are all parties in the war cabinet.

I also agree with the @Parkingt111 love. You are always respectful and listen. A good ear.

Thank you for all those that do take the time to listen and not should shout down, minimise, tell people how to think etc. it is appreciated.

@stormy4319trevor thank you although i can assure you my DC will tell you otherwise 😂

I do get really really angry and upset by what I read and see on the news especially as there are people in Gaza I know that are personally affected so I'm not promising you won't come across some rants in the future and there's more than one poster who will tell you they have read some of my angrier posts in the past too 😬

@Parkingt111 I do actually remember some of your angrier ones near the start of the conflict (I have changed username since then)😂

@plusjamais i was very very defensive then and I also used to get very wound up and bothered by alot but I have come more to accept that a random mumsnet users opinion isn't really going to change what is happening in Gaza so why let it disturb my peace

Your 4th para is interesting to me because it’s exactly how I feel when people say “But do you condemn Hamas actions on Oct 7?” Of course I do but I resent the implication that I don’t and that I’m being forced to say it. A bit like driving to meet someone and being forced to state at their door that you drove carefully and wore your seatbelt before you’re allowed to enter their house.

So I take your point about not wanting to be forced to criticise Netanyahu
In public. But I suppose then people may jump to assume you support him - because there are definitely some very extreme Israeli viewpoints, eg the settlers - and they feel hostile towards you and then you perceive that as antisemitism and so on and so on. By “you” I mean a generic you, not necessarily you personally.

Someone else upthread mentioned that they resented being expected to take Israel’s side immediately after Oct 7th when both Hamas AND Netanyahu were clearly at fault. I definitely felt this too (even though I’m theoretically a neutral 3rd party) and I pushed back against it. I found it extremely upsetting to see terrified nameless children crying in rubble on social media and Al Jazeera while the Western governments seemed to focus exclusively on the life stories of the Oct 7 victims. Posts like yours help to reduce this feeling.

I think lately there seems to be be a swing towards the centre internationally - definitely more sympathy now towards the Palestinians (NOT Hamas). I feel very relieved at this and that in turn makes me more likely to be sympathetic to “the other side”. Also I feel that there is more recognition now that Netanyahu and the settlers are considered a problem by many Israelis and so hopefully that whole settler issue can eventually be addressed going forward in a way it never was before.

@plusjamais and @Parkingt111
Thanks to both of you for the last few posts

Me too @Parkingt111 we haven’t always had the calmest of exchanges! But I think you’re proof that respectful discourse is possible and I appreciate being able to discuss something with you without the immediate response being “So you’re saying you support genocide, you have no humanity!” which is so often the default setting for some posters. There is a massive difference between having a genuine conversation with someone who cares and wants to share views, as opposed to someone who just wants to point score and is coming from a place of intolerance.

I also echo @plusjamais post (as well as her previous response to @mollyfolk about antisemitism) and similarly, I don’t discuss a lot of my views and feelings on here because it’s something I prefer to talk about in real life, not with people who choose to tokenise and bait Jews. inevitably and deliberately misconstruing something I’ve said. So I tend to stick to issues surrounding antisemitism now, where I’m happy to (unequivocally) let people know what a Jewish person thinks about it.

I also agree with @EllaDisenchanted that the impact of Oct 7th is being seriously underestimated, as well the continuing trauma. This does not in any way diminish the magnitude of Palestinian suffering and the trauma inflicted upon them, I can find space in my heart and and my conscience for both. I cannot recommend the erudite elicalebon enough for a valuable perspective on the I/P conflict, Iran and Middle Eastern issues. She spoke of ‘the knowledge that lives in your bones’ the other day and it really resonated with me.

Thank you @Parkingt111 ❤right back at you 🫂

I do think that in some way the many world leaders played a part in causing this divide by immediately picking a side straight away, which caused much resentment. But that's just my thoughts and I could be totally wrong.
Same here. I think a lot of this situation is caused by (mainly) men and their desire to have power, appear in power, have their ego massages, and have a name for themselves in history.

Another poster shared with me some information about the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, who I didn't know much about, which reinforced my view that there seems to be a pull back to conflict as soon as a peaceful solution becomes within touching distance.

Global leaders for decades have handled this situation in their own political and military interests with little consideration to the impact on civilians.

My deep concern is that you can't bomb a ideology out of existence so the current conflict is creating the next generation of people who are traumatised and easily radicalised.

The objective isn’t to bomb an ideology out of existence, the ideologues are brainwashed beyond help, the objective is to degrade their ability to carry out further terrorist attacks.

The objective isn’t to bomb an ideology out of existence, the ideologues are brainwashed beyond help, the objective is to degrade their ability to carry out further terrorist attacks.
The current terrorists and terrorist sympathisers are probably brainwashed beyond help, but the next generation aren't and don't have to be. When civilians are being killed on this sort of scale, it creates fertile ground for recruiters for the next generation.
The idea that if Gaza is flattened and civilians are displaced that this equals safety for everyone is naive. Let's look at the last few decades and see whether military solutions, blockades and occupations made for a safe environment for civilians on both sides...

Somewhere the adults need to get back in the room and focus on peace and ensuring the safety or civilians on both sides.

I haven't changed my mind. We need the current Israeli government gone along with Hamas and every western leader who has refused to condemn the bombing of innocent people in Gaza. I don't think any different about Jewish people because I don't blame them for one country's reckless government.

Basically I've had enough of people being sent to war and innocent civilians dying when these powerful politicians sit in their comfortable houses making decisions that don't affect them directly and they are not prepared to put themselves on the front line.

Basically I've had enough of people being sent to war and innocent civilians dying when these powerful politicians sit in their comfortable houses making decisions that don't affect them directly and they are not prepared to put themselves on the front line
Agreed. That's how I feel about a lot of modern conflict decisions.

At what cost? The total decimation of the entire Gaza strip and the misery and starvation of millions? At what point does the value of these people’s lives start to matter.

Ask Hamas when the lives of the people they were elected to govern will start to matter more to them than killing Jews

Yup. Like Yair Netanyahu. No fear of him joining the army.

That’s not a response to the question. Israel is a country with its own agency and should take accountability for its own decisions in terms of how it has responded to Hamas’s attack. It could have gone about this in a different way but has chosen to achieve its objective in a way that is causing unprecedented levels of humanitarian suffering. That is on the Israeli government.

Ask Hamas when the lives of the people they were elected to govern will start to matter more to them than killing Jews
"But Hamas..." is not a way to avoid discussion about Israel's actions as a country and it is done endlessly on this board.

If the Israeli government want long term peace and safety for their citizens then flattening Gaza, displacing huge numbers of civilians whilst their supporters say 'but it's actually Hamas' fault ask them' isn't going to get lasting peace and it certainly isn't going to stop groups of radical antisemites wanting to harm Jewish people.

Yeah as I thought, amazing how nobody wants to make any demands of Hamas whatsoever

@Desertrose2023 how should they have gone about it?