Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

We might not be able to see it because we’re busy seeing the atrocities idf and settlers are committing and the control Israel government has had for years.

Do Palestinians let children vote? Didn’t realise.

not sure. Ask those that say this is all Palestinians fault for voting Hamas

I don't think anyone ever changes their mind on these matters unless something drastic happens, like they get to live there, get a close friend, family member from there or something. Same with things like Brexit. People just argue endlessly. Best we can hope for is more information leading to a bit more compassion or neutrality...

I’m not sure why you’re talking shite, because I never said that? Y less you can point it out to me?

As I’ve said - there are 60 Muslim and Arab countries in the world. If it DID come to exile - who would be safest? The people with 60 countries to choose from or the people with 0 countries to choose from (who will inevitably end up in places that murdered their people not that long ago). If we are playing the ‘who is better to exile card’ (and I don’t want to play that card but you clearly have a side) I think anyone who doesn’t hate Jews would agree it’s safer that Jewish people aren’t forced into Holocaust 2.0.

Your argument makes no sense.

Nobody here is disputing that people died in the Holocaust. Nobody is condoning that.

What people are trying to explain is that, to people who actually care about human lives (including Palestinian and Jewish lives), you cannot justify one atrocity by pointing at another.

The world doesn't hate Jewish people. The world doesn't even really care that much when Israel does things that used to be considered a bit of a social faux pas like possible war crimes. Large chunks of the world are standing by and not really caring about today's genocide, just as they didn't care about the last few.

Well YOU said that apparently people on MN are “blaming Palestinian children because they voted for Hamas”

Oh so you can’t see the anti-Semitsim. Gotcha.

Where have I heard that before, let me think? Oh yes - the Nazi war crime trials, many of which were still ongoing not that long ago

The world doesn't hate Jewish people.

It does. I assure you it does. When Jewish people tell you they are hater, believe them. You may not see it in your every day MC bubble, but it’s happening.

Also, look at the stats. Google ‘anti senitism on the rise’ and watch the hits come up.

For those saying it’s not about the fact Israel is a Jewish state, and there’s nothing anti-Semitic about being an ardent supporter of the Palestinians I agree - up to a point.

But please do ask yourself why there’s a word for being against the existence of the world’s one Jewish state - anti-Zionist - but there’s no need for a word that describes being against the existence of Christian states, or Muslim ones, or Buddhist ones etc.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that there’s a movement and language when it comes to opposing the world’s one Jewish state, but not when it comes to other religions? When, let’s face it, establishing the vast majority of countries in the world has involved the displacement and/or eradication of many people.

What people are trying to explain is that, to people who actually care about human lives (including Palestinian and Jewish lives), you cannot justify one atrocity by pointing at another.

And yet we have pro-Palestians on this very thread openly not giving a flying fuck about anti-semitism because “oh it look at what Israel did to Palestine!!”

Also making anti-semitism ONLY about what’s happening in Israel is anti-semitic. You need to take a peek outside. I promise you it’s a scary time to be a Jew.

And while we’re at it can everyone stop telling Jewish people to STFU when they share their fear and experiences.

@LeaveBritneyAlone can I just point out that you have mentioned more than once now how nobody wants the Palestinians. This sort of rhetoric has been used in the past to justify massacres or dare I say genocide against a people. It's not a good look coming from someone who is defending the hate against Jewish people and undermines your message

From engaging on Mumsnet what’s really stood out to me is how much false propaganda and lies get swallowed by ordinary people who completely believe them. It’s made me distrustful of some of the obviously biased information being shared on both sides, seeing people state as fact things which have been discounted and fact-checked as false or dismiss reputable sources as spreading lies etc has made me realise how many people are just believing what they want to believe and what suits their side of the narrative. It’s been interesting to see people accuse one side of lying and giving false figures and distorting facts whilst completely believing everything that suits their side’s agenda. I don’t really know what to believe, I think the truth of what happened on October 7th and the truth of what has happened and continues to happen in Gaza since won’t really come out for decades and that makes it very difficult for me to choose a firm side.

Excellent post. Especially when you consider Judaism is the only major religion with ONE country to call its own.

When you factor in the fact that the modern day definition of Zionism came about because, you know….six million Jewish people were murdered and those that were lucky enough to survive spent years pushing their dead relatives around in wheelbarrows to put on fires, being starved, tortured, enslaved and beaten (not because of their choice but because of their blood - age grist Jews were still murderers in the Holocaust)….and they were liberated and STILL hated with a passion and excluded from societies the world over….they thought “We don’t really like this. It’s a bit shit. We are rational in worrying about it happening again. We’d quite like a place to call our own, where we can be together and be away from the people who still hate us and supported the Holocaust”. Is Zionism REALLY such an awful concept?

Anti-Zionists are anti-semites and I’m afraid I will die on that hill.

Can you prove me wrong then?

Im not using it as a reason to commit genocide - I’m stating a fact.

@LeaveBritneyAlone
Please read my post earlier in the thread if you think I live in a happy mc bubble.

I live in a world where people actively want my child, me, my friends and family dead, tortured or worse.

The bombs landing in Gaza? The murders in the West Bank? Some of those killed have been my friends. Some of those left scarred for life have been their children.

My family and I will be dealing with this trauma for the rest of our lives.

And yet somehow I don't think more hate and genocide can be the answer.

Every argument under the sun as to why Israel should continue murdering thousands of innocent children, maiming and orphaning thousands more, depriving 1.5 million people of homes, medical care, schools, water, shelter and food.

Also every argument under the sun as to why it has been ok to let settlers violently and progressively steal homes and land.

Anyone who protests is “victim blaming” “pro Hamas” “anti-Semitic” “doesn’t care about the Holocaust”.

It’s not just me who’s sick to the stomach of this. The vast majority of world leaders have stated - and voted - that they want it to stop. Only the US government wants to continue protecting its aircraft carrier in the Middle East.

Another thing maybe is I think some non-Jewish people really have had their eyes opened to what Israelis and diaspora Jews have been going through for the last however many years.

How their supposed comrades have been going along with Jewish history being re-written and misrepresented for the benefit of those who want to wipe us out.

For every new antisemite since October 7 I think we have also gained a much treasured ally.

Seeing non-Jews making the case against the demonisation and dehumanisation of Israelis for once is really nice. Welcome, friends 😊

If you live in a war zone and I got it wrong I apologise.

But what do you expect Israel to do that will protect their land and people and ensure they are not, yet again, exiled to danger? Nothing is being done to stop Hamas - what should they do?

@LeaveBritneyAlone I have learnt alot about anti-semitism and the unfortunate rise in it from many posters on mumsnet. And i think if it wasn't for the many people on here who have educated me on the matter then there would be a lot of anti-semitism in real life that i wouldnt maybe register and i am very thankful to them. But after reading many of your posts which clearly show a disdain and contempt for many Palestinians, you are not one of those who i would listen to on the subject

Why does Israel need to stop Hamas on their own and on their own terms ? Why haven’t they seek international help in order to finish with Hamas whilst protecting the citizens?

also, do you really think this will finish with Hamas?

Every argument under the sun as to why Israel should continue murdering thousands of innocent children, maiming and orphaning thousands more, depriving 1.5 million people of homes, medical care, schools, water, shelter and food.

Who wants this? Can you point out who wants this?

Ill ask you - what is Israel supposed to do that ensures the protection of its people and its home? Given how much anti-semitism there is in the world and especially around this issue, if Israel surrendered how would you deal with the consequences? What would you do to stop Hamas?

I agree with this.

So you are saying that no one wants Palestinians and no one wants Jews?

Surely then you can see that Palestinians would want to protect their land and people too? They are in danger everyday. Everyday Israeli settlers take more and more land. On average Israel killed almost 1 Palestinian every day of this year prior to October, including small children. If what you say is true and no one else wants them what choice do they have but to stay put and try and fight the occupation as best they can so that one day they and their children can be safe. Was a terrorist attack killing 700 civillians the right way to do that, I don't think so. Equally I don't think Israel is going the right way about it either.

almost ALL pro-Palestinians supports support the exile and de-armament of Jewish people, and tell us that the very recent history of Jewish genocide isn’t relevant
🙄

Err it is a nuts comparison. I personally think both sides should be have been able to live alongside each other sharing safety and prosperity many years ago.

There is clear evidence of the insidious ideology and terrorist strategy that persists in preventing this from the Palestinian side as seen from the live streamed footage of the atrocities that took place on Oct 7th and this is nothing new.

The reason the comparison is nuts is as I’ve previously stated is that the harsh truth is that many Palestinians and their government don’t value their own lives and their own people’s lives as highly as Israelis value their own lives and their own peoples lives which is why there is a never ending conflict.

They would have built bomb shelters instead of terrorist tunnels for a start, never elected a government with a clear mandate to annihilate it’s neighbour and it’s citizens and refuse to engage in any peace agreements, and Oct 7th would never have happened.