Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

No. Pro Hamas. And there’s plenty of them.

This resonates with me a lot. I’m Jewish and left wing, and the refusal or inability of left wing pro-Palestinian supporters to even consider how their actions and arguments impact on Jews has been really depressing. And how left wing support in any conflict for the perceived underdogs can hide a mass of complexities.

And yes - the deep certainty and knowledge of twenty year old ‘experts’ who have read a few Twitter feeds and seen some blurry unverified photos makes me roll my eyes. In particular their simplistic characterisation of Israeli society as a bunch of warmongers. I mentioned on one thread that it’s much more complicated than this, and cited the assassination of the left wing Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin in the 1990s by a right wing settler extremist. They had no idea who he was…

The bottom line is that Israel has murdered exponentially more Palestinians than Palestinians have murdered Israelis.

Have you counted the six million Jews murdered in the Holocaust?

If your thinking “but the Palestinians didn’t do that” - the reason it’s relevant is because exile from their ONE Jewish land - which is what Palestinians and many anti-semites want - would result in this again. So it’s important to factor it in as a relevant number. It hasn’t even been 80 years FFS and people are happy to roll over and let it happen again, swallowing the EXACT SAME message Eastern European countries did last time

The Palestinians did not do the Holocaust. The Gazan children currently being slaughtered in their thousands did not do the Holocaust. Dear God, is this your argument? That it’s ok to murder innocent children because of the Holocaust? Bloody hell.

This is the sort of disordered, fucked up thinking the Gazan children are up against.

Correct - but did you read the last part of my post? I feel like you really haven’t

What about Israeli children? What thinking that Jewish children should be exiled from their homes to be in nations that will almost certainly treat them the way they treated their grandparents, do for them? Genuine question

It is not the problem of today’s children.

@LeaveBritneyAlone Now, I wasn't personally alive at the time, but I'm fairly sure that the general consensus is that the Nazis were responsible for the Holocaust in WW2.

Palestinians alive today did not kill those people.

In terms of rolling over and allowing genocide, yes, that does seem to be what many people are doing at the moment. And it's sickening.

Oh so Jewish children aren’t our problem but we must do all we can for Palestinian children?

Why the fuck can’t people just admit they hate Jewish people

So in order that Israeli children stay in Israel thousands of innocent Gazan children must be slaughtered? Can you not see how fucked up that is?

🤦🏻‍♀️ so nothing to do with hitler ? It’s all Palestinians fault?

The sheer irrationality is frightening.

<Sigh> you haven’t understood my (rather simple) post.

My point is - if “the bottom line” is “numbers killed” then we absolutely HAVE to count those killed in the Holocaust a because that’s precisely why Jewish people are in Israel and it’s so very recent that it’s relevant enough to happen again.

People have never stopped hating Jews since the Holocaust. They’ve just transferred their hate to “Oh but Israel”

Im not sure if you’re being obtuse or not? My post was as quite clear. I even said Palestinians were not at fault but if the BOTTOM line is Jewish murders vs Palestinian murders (NOT my argument FWIW) then we can’t ignore the genocide of Jews that took place not even a lifetime ago

And seeing as you asked - it wasn’t just Hitler, no. It was the everyday complicit man who swallowed anti-Jew propaganda (much like is happening today) and supported the genocide.

And it will happen again if let it

If the country bordering mine was run by Hamas and had carried out such atrocities and announced their intention to do it again, I'd want Hamas eradicated. I wouldn't feel safe until they were. It doesn't surprise me that Israel thinks that way.

I agree with this - in a way 7 October explains exactly why the IDF looks like it does. Israel is surrounded by countries and terrorist groups that pose a tangible and credible threat to Israel’s existence. So of course the IDF is going to look and act like it does. To expect otherwise is wishful thinking, and a luxury that we in the UK and similar countries have, because we do not live in a country with that level of threat.

The thing is that you’re trying to make a competition of who has got more deaths. When the reality is that holocaust should have never happened and this war in 2023 shouldn’t be happening. This war isn’t against Jewish people but against Palestinian citizens. If you care about Jewish dying you should also care about Palestinians unless you think they’re second class ones and don’t care about them.

My god I can’t argue with this much obtuseness.

NO ONE is calling for the slaughter of Palestinian children. No one. Very few Israeli people support the atrocities in Gaza.

But - and read this slowly y for your own benefit / it’s perfectly possible to defend the right of Jewish people not to be exiled to places that hate them, and ALSO not want Gazan children killed.

But this isn’t up to me, or you - and it isn’t wholly up to Israel either. It can end, and Palestine is not the fluffy victim people think it is. They cannot show that if there was a cease fire, the terror on their end would stop. They don’t WANT to live peacefully alongside Jewish people, they want Jews exiled. What is Israel supposed to do? Let them take it?

Agreed

But nice to say mentioning the Holocaust is irritational 👍🏽

There is people blaming these kids in mn because they voted for Hamas. So yes. There is people in mn that believe this is All Palestinians fault. Idf are innocent people that are forced to torture / rape and kill because Hamas is what Palestinians have voted.

Yep - and it could stop tomorrow. It’s on Palestine to stop Hamas.

The fact that people’s first solution is “exile Jews, they have no one country to go to so just scatter them about the anti-semitic countries of the world” make me just think they’re a great bit fucking anti-Semite, perhaps a Nazi sympathiser and probably not very bright too.

Why do pro-Palestine supporters think not ONE of the 60 Muslim and Arab countries have offered a home to Palestine?

It’s better to scatter the Palestinians around the world like the Israel government was suggesting

🤔 not sure whether you’re trying to say that 2m citizens are terrorists … 🤔

Actually that was @Thereissomelight who said the ‘bottom line’ is the number of deaths. I never said that. That’s not my bottom line.

This war is a religious war and is VERY much against Jewish people.

The “it’s not about Jews but the people oppressed by Jews” is the EXACT SAME propaganda perpetuated by the Nazis. They drip fed it into the world’s psyche so that when Jews were forced out their homes and marched into ghettos, rather than standing up in outrage, the world stood on the pavements and applauded the decision.

How people can’t see this is happening again is beyond me

Do Palestinians let children vote? Didn’t realise.

Ive never met anyone who actually thinks this on MN or otherwise - but almost ALL pro-Palestinians supports support the exile and de-armament of Jewish people, and tell us that the very recent history of Jewish genocide isn’t relevant. It’s anti-semitic gaslighting and I will always call it out.