What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

Wait, so Hamas built the wall around Gaza? Hamas has done the blockade? Hamas is shooting on sight any civilian that attempts to leave Gaza by land or sea? All those soldiers in IDF uniforms are false flag operations by Hamas?

That is one heck of a conspiracy theory.

Hamas is so deeply intertwined with the lives of ordinary Gazans that fighting them must be like trying to capture an octopus.

I'm really sorry you have experienced that. I hope you reported posts which described Jewish people as you have described. By and large I have seen posts describing Israels actions as horrific (including mine) but I'm appalled if you have seen venom against Jewish people. I hope you are okay x

Does believing that or parroting it make it easier for you to ignore, justify or minimise the genocide?

No it wasn’t. The Labour Party had a huge problem with anti-Semitism.

I once, to my shame, believed it was made up and exaggerated - an anti-racist Party would never be racist, surely - and then I started seeing it for myself. Anti-Semitic comments being made by local members, who I knew and liked, who didn’t even appear to realise they were saying anything wrong.

And then as the scale of the problem became clear, the doubling down started. The anti-semitism got worse, or perhaps people just felt more confident in saying it. Many people went into a state of denial, many people were genuinely anti-Semitic, and many people watched in horror at what the Party was becoming.

All of us who were in the Labour Party in those years should feel shame that the EHRC found our party in breach of equalities law.

The attitudes on the left haven’t gone away. This latest conflict has brought them into the light again, thankfully with fewer as actual members of the Labour Party. But it is still there. I’ve been told this past couple of months that Labour is paid for by Jewish people. That Hamas simply didn’t know what to do when they breached the border. Seen comics comparing Israelis to dogs. Had it suggested that Israel has simply not asked Hamas to come and sit at the table to sort this all out.

But anti-Semitism on the left didn’t start on 7/10 or with Corbyn or with the creation of Israel. It goes back decades and centuries, and I wonder why. I know why anti-semitism exists, and why all racism exists, but why are the far left anti-racists also largely anti-Semitic.

Discussing this with a friend who was in militant in the 80s, he told me there was a lot of anti-Semitic feeling in their discussions then, and I’ve honestly had to call him out several times over the past ten years for his own throwaway anti-semitism.

Anti-semitism has been running through left wing politics for a long time and I am interested in why it is such a continuous theme.

It's a war, which I believe is justified.

War is shit and I wish it wasn't this way.

Less war, more assault and genocide by a brutal and inhumane occupying force.

Iraq was also justified (till it wasn't, 1 million dead later)
Crushing the Mau Mau was justified
The Holocaust was justified
Famine in Bengal was justified
Congos destruction was justified
Slavery was justified
Apartheid was justified and Mandela was a named terrorist

All wars are justified by the people they benefit. Only history tells otherwise

https://x.com/PalestineNW/status/1733978322013434307?s=20

this is a hard watch, a survivor of Oct 07 tells her story, it might open your eyes @Pizdietz

By the way this is the internationally-recognised definition of antisemitism:

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

It even includes examples of how discussions around Israel often veer into antisemitism, it couldn’t be a more helpful resource. (Of course that means some antisemites decided the definition is a Jewish conspiracy to protect Israel from criticism - as if we seriously care or seriously think we could stop them going on and on and on and on and on about Israel).

Well, I have. From SOAS which I finished in 2019 as a distance leaning degree whilst working. Not sure why I’d lie.

Happy to send another with any object you’d like in front of it if you’d like me to prove my credentials any further (which I don’t think you have to have to have understanding of the subject, but it’s galling to be accused of never having had an interest in foreign affairs before this.

No, this is wrong. Of course a two state solution doesn’t go against Zionism, at all, in any way, shape, or form. Zionism simply means a Jewish state for Jewish people. Israel agreed to the UN’s partition.

I think a good analogy for Hamas today is the Nazis...at the time they were so intertwined with normal German people....children had to join the nazi youth, business people had to join the nazi party even if they weren't of the same view as them. Yet after the war the German people overwhelming rejected the Nazis and are a peaceful people now, with Europe's largest menorah in being lit in Germany the other day. I think for the Gazan people it can be the same. If Israel can get rid of Hamas, hopefully after the war the people can come together in hatred of a common enemy that caused both their people pain.

I’m not sure I have too. I didn’t start this thread to convince people there was a problem on the left. There is. I started it to discuss with other people who also recognise that there is a problem why it is so.

I can’t imagine how you must be feeling. I am not Jewish, and have looked around at many on the left these past few months and felt ashamed.

“Cloud cuckoo” and “land” come to mind here. You are accusing the Gazan people as being Nazis now 🙄 is that another excuse for genocide ?

JFC ... can we stop with the literal fucking Nazi comparisons, please?

This is really not helping anyone!

PS: I really, literally, mean "everyone" not "but when you pull the Nazi card, X, that is quite alright, though!"

That is an interesting train of thought. I have thought about the Palestinian history regarding nazis because a lot were on Hitlers side after he courted the Arab world with daily news properganda radio broadcasts. There was even a Palestinian Arab troop in the German army. Plus nazi soldiers went to the Mandate and fought the British with Palestinians there. We now their are still Palestinians with nazi ideology because of the couple of nazi merchandise shops in Gaza city and the fact you occasionally see them wave flags or say Hitler was right etc.

However I hadn't really thought about the effect Hamas has in Gaza being like the effect the nazis had in Germany. If this is correct and it very likely is then maybe things really can be swung around to be a better future. I mean the Germans have not completely gor rid of all exstemist idiots but have got rid of most and German has done well since the second World War. That gives some hope that Gazens may have peace and a better life too if ever they can be rid of exstemists.

I don't agree really...I think that what we are seeing- Hamas soldiers surrendering is exactly like the Nazi soldiers surrendering after ww2. Hopefully some or most of them have been forced to fight rather than being terrorists. The IDF are not shooting people en masse?? They are doing what they can to avoid civilian casualties. And NO children deserve to die, even the child soldiers that Hamas have made......these children will need a lot of support and rehabilitation though. The fact they use children in their war is what makes Hamas so difficult to fight as no normal humans with any sort of normal compass would put their children in harms way by choice.

The poster said "analogy for Hamas today is the Nazis"

So unless you think the Gazens are all Hamas the poster is not saying what you are accusing of

Plus it was a comparison of behaviour and control. So the poster was not even calling Hamas nazis anyway

I don’t really like Nazi comparisons but they do demonstrate the idea that civilians are always docile peaceniks who are ideologically completely at odds with the enemy in uniform, has always been wishful thinking.

I don't agree really...I think that what we are seeing- Hamas soldiers surrendering is exactly like the Nazi soldiers surrendering after ww2.

? @Zitagreb are you aware that the videos being shown on Israeli media are not of Hamas soldiers surrendering? The videos have been verified to be of Palestinian civilian boys and men being rounded up and detained. Some of them have been identified as UN workers, another was a well known journalist.

Same.

I was away from MN for a fortnight or so after 7 October, and when I popped back in I was just gobsmacked. It's like a terrifyingly vicious version of Stepford Wives.

No....I said Hamas, as the voted leadership in Gaza can certainly be compared to the Nazis...the voted leadership in Germany during the Holocaust. The normal Gazan people can be compared to the normal German people who felt pressured to join the party and hate Jews through fear, not because they were intrinsically bad people.

Sorry Stepford wives?

I don't understand