Page 8 | What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

Notsuretoputit · 2023-12-10T18:34:12+00:00

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK. It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics. I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

Livinginanotherworld · 10/12/2023 23:19

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:56

OK, you're counting numbers.

So if someone was driving a truck and accidentally ran over a bunch of kids, is that the same as (say) deliberately driving a truck along a pedestrian area (e.g. Nice) and killing a bunch of kids and enjoying it?

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so you are now saying Israel accidentally bombed those children to bits are you ? Oh they didn’t mean it, they were trying to get Hamas, sorry a few thousand kids got accidentally killed.

Original poster

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 23:20

Zonder · 10/12/2023 22:22

Most of these people (who I know, anyway, and those who’d call themselves left wing) would never attempt to defend ISIS or the Taliban, for example. But are falling over themselves to blame Israel for Hamas’ terrorist attack and the need for Israel’s response.

Why is it?

But people do speak out for the civilians in Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq. That's the equivalent.

You don’t think Hamas is a terrorist organisation?

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Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 23:21

Livinginanotherworld · 10/12/2023 23:19

so you are now saying Israel accidentally bombed those children to bits are you ? Oh they didn’t mean it, they were trying to get Hamas, sorry a few thousand kids got accidentally killed.

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Do you understand Hamas's tactics? and how they use a human shield?

Do you think they would bother, if they didn't think it would be effective (i.e. if they thought Israel had no regard for civilian life)?

Try and use a bit of logic here.

Original poster

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 23:22

AdamRyan · 10/12/2023 22:27

We seem to have moved away from OPs original topic, which was whether her left leaning friends Facebook feeds indicate a bigger problem of antisemitism on "the left".

I didn’t say that. The left does have a big problem with anti-semitism, I don’t doubt it. I didn’t ask if, I asked why.

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BabaBarrio · 10/12/2023 23:24

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:53

Well, that very idea is ridiculed by the son of Hamas's founding leader, who also thinks the West is very naive and easy to manipulate

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So it’s Hamas can’t be trusted on anything, except this guy who grew up inside Hamas but happens to say what you want to hear? Really you are not being very consistent or rational in your choice of expert sources on the question of does Israel still occupy Gaza?

On the other hand, we could just accept the fact that the United Nations and experts on international law have determined that Israel is the occupying government of all Palestinian Territories: of East Jerusalem since 1948 and of Gaza and West Bank since 1967.
https://www.unocha.org/occupied-palestinian-territory
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/commission-inquiry-finds-israeli-occupation-unlawful-under-international-law
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129722
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129942
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-64133926

Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestinian territory, tantamount to ‘settler-colonialism’: UN expert

Israel’s occupation is illegal and indistinguishable from a “settler-colonial” situation, which must end, as a pre-condition for Palestinians to exercise their right to self-determination, the UN’s independent expert on the occupied Palestinian territo...

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129942

Toothyfruity · 10/12/2023 23:26

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 23:18

Oh for goodness sake. If Israel wanted to wipe Gaza off the face of the earth it could have done so by now, but hasn’t. If Hamas could wipe Israel off the face of the earth it would have, but can’t.

These are not children who can be told to shake hands and say sorry. Hamas has said they will repeat their 7/10 attack.

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And Israel is committing genocide.

Just because they're doing it slightly more slowly and painfully than they probably could doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Livinginanotherworld · 10/12/2023 23:28

MrsHarrisAParis · 10/12/2023 22:53

^aren’t as endlessly fascinated by other foreign governments’ affairs.^
Again you're displaying your ignorance. You haven't been interested in foreign affairs until now so assume no-one else has been. You've obviously missed the hundreds of threads on here about different global issues, conflicts, and genocides. You're confusing your lack of knowledge and context for everyone's. There are posters on here who have worked on refugee issues, conflict, international issues, politics, etc for years. And many, many more who are knowledgeable and interested in the issues. But somehow you missed the threads on here. And in RL, you missed the marches, the petitions, the protests, the rallies, the boycotts.

This. I’ve been involved with small refugee organisations for 30 odd years, I have spent many years in the M.E. the many wars and conflicts have been savage and heartbreaking. I’ve never seen anything on this scale however, it chills me to the bone.

Original poster

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 23:29

MrsHarrisAParis · 10/12/2023 22:45

'my' list of organisations?! No. It's a recognised global list.
You started this thread because you didn't understand why people on the left were calling for a ceasefire. It's fair to say that your knowledge of international relations and the likelihood of a ceasefire holding if Israel would commit to one does not supersede the views of WHO, the ICC or UN agencies.
Your knowledge of what is happening on the ground isn't as pertinent as that of the mothers in Palestine and Israel who have jointly been campaigning for a ceasefire since Oct and agencies like MSF who have been working in Israel and Gaza for decades.
You started this thread by broadcasting your lack of understanding. Perhaps you should then listen to those who do have experience in this area (both geographically and politically). The ICC, WHO, UN agencies, MSF have all issued clear statements concerning international law, the humanitarian position and what the next steps should be.
And fwiw, people on the right support a ceasefire too. Tens of thousands of people have marched in the UK. From all political persuasions and none. This isn't a partisan issue. It's a humanitarian one.

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you started this thread because you didn't understand why people on the left were calling for a ceasefire

No, I started this thread to discuss why there was a root of anti-semitism in left wing British politics.

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FrippEnos · 10/12/2023 23:33

Notsuretoputit

strangely enough you can support a home for Jewish people and be against what they are currently doing to the Palestinians and have been doing to the people of Palestine for years.

Livinginanotherworld · 10/12/2023 23:37

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 23:18

Oh for goodness sake. If Israel wanted to wipe Gaza off the face of the earth it could have done so by now, but hasn’t. If Hamas could wipe Israel off the face of the earth it would have, but can’t.

These are not children who can be told to shake hands and say sorry. Hamas has said they will repeat their 7/10 attack.

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No they couldn’t as they know that they would bring Iran into it, then BRICS, it would be WW 3 and we’d all be gone.

No, they are doing it systematically by stealth instead.

BabaBarrio · 10/12/2023 23:38

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 23:21

Do you understand Hamas's tactics? and how they use a human shield?

Do you think they would bother, if they didn't think it would be effective (i.e. if they thought Israel had no regard for civilian life)?

Try and use a bit of logic here.

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The population density of the Gaza Strip is slightly higher than the population of Greater London.

Who trapped the civilians in with the terrorists? Who is bombing everyone indiscriminately?

By trapping the civilians in with the terrorists, Israel forced civilians side by side with terrorists. Hamas isn’t forcing the civilians to stay. The fact that everyone who could flee, has fled shows that Gazans don’t want to be killed with Hamas.

Original poster

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 23:39

MrsHarrisAParis · 10/12/2023 22:53

^aren’t as endlessly fascinated by other foreign governments’ affairs.^
Again you're displaying your ignorance. You haven't been interested in foreign affairs until now so assume no-one else has been. You've obviously missed the hundreds of threads on here about different global issues, conflicts, and genocides. You're confusing your lack of knowledge and context for everyone's. There are posters on here who have worked on refugee issues, conflict, international issues, politics, etc for years. And many, many more who are knowledgeable and interested in the issues. But somehow you missed the threads on here. And in RL, you missed the marches, the petitions, the protests, the rallies, the boycotts.

I’ve got a masters degree in Global Diplomacy from one of the top five universities in the world for the study of international relations and work in politics (and with refugees from foreign conflicts, at that). I have been interested in foreign affairs long before now.

I have never seen so many people on the left, which is what this thread is about, tying themselves in knots to condemn an ally and justify terrorism.

It happened to a lesser scale when some tried to defend and support Russia invading Ukraine, with actually a big cross over to the anti-Semitic voices now, but they went quiet about supporting Russia after not too long.

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Zonder · 10/12/2023 23:39

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 23:20

You don’t think Hamas is a terrorist organisation?

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Oh for Pete's sake, are you having a comprehension problem? I literally said in my first response to you right back at the beginning of the thread that I see Hamas as terrorists.

My entire point in this post was to point out that Hamas is not the same as Palestine civilians, Taliban is not the same as Afghan civilians etc

Most people don't try to defend Hamas, Isis or Taliban but if they have any compassion they will speak out for the civilians in each of those lands.

Toothyfruity · 10/12/2023 23:40

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 23:11

Do you want links to Instagram accounts showing the true horror?

No. Do you want links to Instagram accounts shwoing the true horror of 7 October?

I can't think of another war in my lifetime (which dates almost from the end of WW2) when what you call an "occupying force" gave notice of attacks about to happen.

Surely if other Arab countries had wanted to help, they could have done so.

It is an occupying force. That's accepted by pretty much every country on earth. Even the US accepts that for God's sake.

And threatening people with bombing unless they leave their homes isn't being a nice guy. It's ethnic cleansing.

Original poster

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 23:41

Katy231 · 10/12/2023 22:56

Also OP ... I am not a leftie but I can see genocide and ethnic cleansing for what it is.

Please don't assume that people on the right support genocide. That's a weird thing to suggest.

I’m not suggesting anything about the right. The right don’t tend to wander about telling everyone how anti-racist they are. This thread is about the left.

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Livelovelaugh028384 · 10/12/2023 23:43

@EasterIssland @Livinginanotherworld @PassMeTheCookies anyone else who wants a ceasefire please look at motaz and bisans post. They've asked for everyone who can do the best to do a global strike. To try and limit whatever we can.

Livinginanotherworld · 10/12/2023 23:43

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 23:39

I’ve got a masters degree in Global Diplomacy from one of the top five universities in the world for the study of international relations and work in politics (and with refugees from foreign conflicts, at that). I have been interested in foreign affairs long before now.

I have never seen so many people on the left, which is what this thread is about, tying themselves in knots to condemn an ally and justify terrorism.

It happened to a lesser scale when some tried to defend and support Russia invading Ukraine, with actually a big cross over to the anti-Semitic voices now, but they went quiet about supporting Russia after not too long.

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Of course you have 🙄

Zonder · 10/12/2023 23:44

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 23:15

Okay, so there are not only Jewish people who live in Israel. They are less than 75%. The rest of the population is largely made up of Arabs, who are largely Muslim, and then there are a few from other ethnicities and religious denominations. Israeli Arabs (and all Israeli citizens) have the same rights as Israeli Jews. It is the homeland of Palestinians who’ve lived there for decades.

I agree and support a two state solution, as did Israel back in 1947. The Palestinian Arab leaders did not (the area was under British mandate at the time). And so Israel was created and immediately militarily attacked by its neighbours, and Israel went on to win that war.

Today, Palestine’s ‘government’ (seems wrong to use that word for a terrorist organisation), Hamas, still rejects the idea of two states. They don’t want to see an Israeli and Palestinian state and are absolutely crystal clear about that. They want to see Israel eradicated.

Zionism stems from 19th century Europe, when the new hopes Jewish people had that they could be simply German/French/whatever nationality and also Jewish, being treated no differently to the gentile, came to an end in a sweeping wave of anti-semitism in central and Eastern Europe. We all know how that ended.

Let’s not stand back and watch another wave of anti-semitism crash over the UK and Europe, this time hiding behind concern for the Palestinians.

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I too would like a two state solution. But that goes against Zionism. You can't have both.

And you can't say Palestine wants to wipe Israel off the earth without admitting Israel are trying to do that to Palestine. They are literally doing that. Have you read the UN figures on how many people are dying of disease, starvation, lack of clean water in Gaza because of Israel's actions? Have you seen how Israel have told the Palestinians to leave one area and go to another, and then attacked that new area? Have you seen how many civilians have been slaughtered by Israel?

I know you said in another post on here that Israel don't want to wipe out Gaza and if they did they would have done. That is abject ignorance. The genocide is happening. And it's in one direction.

Livinginanotherworld · 10/12/2023 23:46

Livelovelaugh028384 · 10/12/2023 23:43

@EasterIssland @Livinginanotherworld @PassMeTheCookies anyone else who wants a ceasefire please look at motaz and bisans post. They've asked for everyone who can do the best to do a global strike. To try and limit whatever we can.

Yes, I follow them both, I’m taking part.

BabaBarrio · 10/12/2023 23:52

I have never seen so many people on the left, which is what this thread is about, tying themselves in knots to condemn an ally and justify terrorism.

There are so many, and yet you have not given us a single example of anyone on the left who has justified Hamas’ terrorism. 🤔

bness · 10/12/2023 23:53

Livinginanotherworld · 10/12/2023 23:43

Of course you have 🙄

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And Keir Starmer is a Human Rights Lawyer

bness · 10/12/2023 23:55

BabaBarrio · 10/12/2023 23:52

I have never seen so many people on the left, which is what this thread is about, tying themselves in knots to condemn an ally and justify terrorism.

There are so many, and yet you have not given us a single example of anyone on the left who has justified Hamas’ terrorism. 🤔

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Seriously.

All smoke and mirrors to hide that a genocide is happening

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 23:56

@BabaBarrio
Who trapped the civilians in with the terrorists?

Hamas... apparently without much protest.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 10/12/2023 23:56

I’m a dual national British/Israeli. Before October 7 I considered myself on the left, I considered myself British as I’ve lived here all my life. Now I don’t know. I feel completely isolated and exposed. It’s not just October 7, it’s the left’s reaction to it (or lack thereof). Seeing comments on MN where people are programmed to think the worst of Jews and don’t see us as human. I joined MN less than a week ago for a bit of fun, since then people have directed blood libel at me, people have commented that Jews are genetically unable to feel empathy, that our trauma means we have no morals… all to no reaction. I had to take down my mezuzah, I am not displaying a menorah this year, it sucks. My cousin even got accosted recently by protesters at a family-oriented Christmas event. They were even protesting at a Christian event!! There’s nowhere we can go in public anymore.

bness · 10/12/2023 23:58

Pizdietz · 10/12/2023 22:41

I know what you're saying, but you could also argue that Israel are bystanders in a struggle between Gaza and Hamas, two closely intertwined forces.

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You know that makes no sense right? Israel is the colonising and brutal occupier. It is not some innocent bystander sitting by, it is a violent, inhumane and unjust occupying force (regardless of which religion it follows)