What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

Hamas already agreed to a ceasefire. It lasted a week until negotiations collapsed after Israel repeatedly broke the ceasefire by 1) shooting and killing unarmed Palestinians on Day 1. Ceasefire literally means cease firing any weapons. 2) agreeing to 200 aid trucks a day and then going fuck you not doing it. 3) Detaining without charge as many Palestinians as they released which is a diabolical nah nah nah you’re releasing hostages and getting nothing breaking the spirit of the prisoner exchange part of the ceasefire, 4) and flying drones over Gaza despite agreeing they would not.

The mediators have repeatedly stated Hamas is willing to do a permanent ceasefire.

Hamas itself has repeatedly offered ceasefire for release of all remaining hostages.

Who has repeatedly said no to a ceasefire? Israel and the U.S. Their officials are the only ones on camera and telling the media no ceasefire.

What you say you know, you don’t know.

I've watched these people. I used to respect Gabor Mate and followed him quite a bit. I'm asking for specific examples to match the atrocities of 7 October. Not just "look what happens when you bomb a city" (not to dismiss that as a trivial thing to do; but war = terrorism? there is actually a difference).

Hamas are not random foreign neighbours. It would be more like if the Welsh and Scottish declared that England belonged to the Celtic/ Gaelic people and forced all of the people in England out of their home and onto a tiny strip of land on the south coast, maybe Bournemouth or Plymouth, and declared that the land was theirs by right, and then ensured the English had no airport or means to leave the country and held them under occupation and an English terrorist group eventually, after decades, rose up and attacked the now Celtic/ Gaelic people in the UK and swore that eventually the land they believed was England would eventually be English again. In that situation perhaps some people would have some sympathy with the English for wanting what used to be their homeland back?

There are no words. Shameful.

I am surprised (and heartened) to hear your experience, but I really think there is absolutely no doubt that the left really does have a serious problem with anti-semitism. A lot of people who were overtly guilty of it were rooted out of the Labour Party, but too many remain, and the ones who are no longer members are still on the left, often in fringe parties, on anti-racism marches, and still as anti-Semitic as ever. But would defend to death their record of being anti-racists.

I do believe a lot of it stems from a purveying attitude amongst many on the left that Jewish people are rich and control the world. I do believe many on the left buy into that and that is why we see such anti-semitism in left wing politics.

Well, that very idea is ridiculed by the son of Hamas's founding leader, who also thinks the West is very naive and easy to manipulate

^aren’t as endlessly fascinated by other foreign governments’ affairs.^
Again you're displaying your ignorance. You haven't been interested in foreign affairs until now so assume no-one else has been. You've obviously missed the hundreds of threads on here about different global issues, conflicts, and genocides. You're confusing your lack of knowledge and context for everyone's. There are posters on here who have worked on refugee issues, conflict, international issues, politics, etc for years. And many, many more who are knowledgeable and interested in the issues. But somehow you missed the threads on here. And in RL, you missed the marches, the petitions, the protests, the rallies, the boycotts.

Well it's accepted by pretty much every country and international organisation on earth so I'll trust them rather than the charlatan in the video thanks.

Exactly this!

OK, you're counting numbers.

So if someone was driving a truck and accidentally ran over a bunch of kids, is that the same as (say) deliberately driving a truck along a pedestrian area (e.g. Nice) and killing a bunch of kids and enjoying it?

Also OP ... I am not a leftie but I can see genocide and ethnic cleansing for what it is.

Please don't assume that people on the right support genocide. That's a weird thing to suggest.

Interesting article on Sinwar and what he wants from this. Murder not reserved for the Jews.... apple.news/AFrKLifRtTnOCphcG-gAlUQ

Some spectactular gaslighting on this thread.

Yes! but what I find fascinating is how each side says the same about each other. It's really, really weird. For example, you probably think I'm talking shit. But who knows?!

I do believe a lot of it stems from a purveying attitude amongst many on the left that Jewish people are rich and control the world. I do believe many on the left buy into that and that is why we see such anti-semitism in left wing politics.

I personally cannot speak for anyone else but myself ...

... I have no idea whether "Jewish people" are rich as a whole - and neither do I care. I most certainly do not believe that "Jewish people" control the world, overall.

What I do believe is that Israel is an armed-to-its-teeth nuclear [even though they never officially acknowledged this - unless their tourism minister publicly suggesting they might want to nuke Gaza counts] power, an occupying power, that Israel enjoys the support of the US, and that it is dealing an insane, inexcusable level of violence against Gazans at the moment.

Furthermore, I believe - in line with international law and various UN resolutions - that Israel illegally occupies Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jersusalem, and that its policies towards and treatment of Palestinians who live there have been nothing short of inhumane and are inexcusable.

As for "why does the US support Israel": no, that is not some sort of a "Jewish cabal" situation - it is realpolitik and the desire to maintain a hegemonic position - with Israel sort of functioning as an "unsinkable aircraft carrier" in the region. This is why I support protest so much: Realpolitik is, ultimately, a cost/benefit analysis - if the cost can be raised, the value of the benefit shrinks in proportion.

Are you saying Israel are so incompetent they are just going about accidentally dropping bombs on schools, hospitals, refugee camps and homes and killing innocent children? Israel will be fully aware of the number of civilians being killed, they will have been fully aware of what the consequence of leaving hospitals full of premature babies without fuel would be, they haven’t accidentally lost control of one or two bombs, this is a planned and calculated attack within which well over 100 children have been killed every day. And many Israeli people have been celebrating the war and the attacks, there are videos all over social media of Israelis celebrating the death of innocents and of military leaders showing no remorse and no sign they care about the loss of civilians, referring to Palestinian children as ‘human animals’ and other such slurs. The IDF have planned to kill far more children than Hamas have and haven’t shown any sign that they aren’t happy to do so.

White phosphorus causing horrendous burns, cutting power to premature babies' incubators allowing them to slowly die alone, cutting off water supplies, food, bombing hospitals whilst bombing a civilian population so that they can't get even basic healthcare, rounding up civilian men and terrorising and humiliating them, telling people to go to a safe area and then bombing the safe area and telling them to move again and then bombing them yet again, shooting them as they leave sometimes, targeting journalists and the families of journalists, ringing people telling them they are going to be killed before killing them, bombing schools where refugees are sheltering, parading around people's destroyed homes damaging their possessions including religious objects and destroying them, in the West Bank terrorising and threatening people, forcing them from their houses and farms.

How much more do you need? Do you want links to Instagram accounts showing the true horror?

Do you want links to Instagram accounts showing the true horror?

No. Do you want links to Instagram accounts shwoing the true horror of 7 October?

I can't think of another war in my lifetime (which dates almost from the end of WW2) when what you call an "occupying force" gave notice of attacks about to happen.

Surely if other Arab countries had wanted to help, they could have done so.

Okay, so there are not only Jewish people who live in Israel. They are less than 75%. The rest of the population is largely made up of Arabs, who are largely Muslim, and then there are a few from other ethnicities and religious denominations. Israeli Arabs (and all Israeli citizens) have the same rights as Israeli Jews. It is the homeland of Palestinians who’ve lived there for decades.

I agree and support a two state solution, as did Israel back in 1947. The Palestinian Arab leaders did not (the area was under British mandate at the time). And so Israel was created and immediately militarily attacked by its neighbours, and Israel went on to win that war.

Today, Palestine’s ‘government’ (seems wrong to use that word for a terrorist organisation), Hamas, still rejects the idea of two states. They don’t want to see an Israeli and Palestinian state and are absolutely crystal clear about that. They want to see Israel eradicated.

Zionism stems from 19th century Europe, when the new hopes Jewish people had that they could be simply German/French/whatever nationality and also Jewish, being treated no differently to the gentile, came to an end in a sweeping wave of anti-semitism in central and Eastern Europe. We all know how that ended.

Let’s not stand back and watch another wave of anti-semitism crash over the UK and Europe, this time hiding behind concern for the Palestinians.

The only anti semitism in the Labour Party was the right wing fascists agenda designed to oust the socialist left wing, it was smeared, financed and engineered by the LFI, which of course has now left the UK with no opposition party. Meanwhile the UK stands with the US and Israel against the rest of the world with the blood of Palestine on its hands. Pariahs of the world.

that's hilarious, considering who he is.

Oh for goodness sake. If Israel wanted to wipe Gaza off the face of the earth it could have done so by now, but hasn’t. If Hamas could wipe Israel off the face of the earth it would have, but can’t.

These are not children who can be told to shake hands and say sorry. Hamas has said they will repeat their 7/10 attack.