What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

Sequentially, Israel did abc (brutal and violent displacement, murder and takeover, continuing for decades on Palestinians) and Hamas came 40 years later and did xyz (more brutality On Palestinians and attacks against Israel) and they both engaged in a warped cycle of misuse of power. Hamas exists because of Israels brutal occupation in the first place.

I'm thinking through what you are saying.
It's not just food, it's also water and humans need water more than they need food.

Do you think it's possible to get enough water to support millions of people across the Rafah crossing? I can't see how it could be done.

This link says just 1.6 litres of water per person has made it across.

If and when civilians start dying of thirst and hunger in large numbers, are you still going to feel that is a reasonable consequence of Hamas' attacks?

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/gaza-water-supply-just-17-cent-pre-siege-levels#:~:text=Over%20344%20million%20liters%20of,both%20municipal%20and%20domestic%20use.

I think by convenient whataboutery it helps to justify and turn a blind eye to genocide, so you can see the pictures, videos and statistics and not have to feel guilty or sad, but just feel that it's justified or blame someone else. You can convince yourself you/your country is doing all it's can by good and for protection and world peace and that this is someone else's fault. That way, you can silence your inner conscience and humanity and not have to worry or care about whats happening. Probably good for your skin and beauty sleep too (who cares about the heart or soul)

We could argue about that, but let’s lay it to one side, and take your narrative as a given.

And? What now? Israel in the past was bloody and brutal. Now Hamas is bloody and brutal. So Israel should what? Lay down? Accept the continual threat of death? Accept pogroms against their citizens? Explain to me how Israel should respond to the October attacks- because whatever the history, or the bloody conflict- this is the situation now. So Israel defends its security. Should they simply accept Hamas’ and allow their citizens to be murdered? Because it’s not the Israeli state infrastructure being targeted, it’s not IDF installations. Its citizens. Ordinary people like you and me, murdered, kidnapped, raped and tortured. What should they do?

And really that is entirely predictable given the social fabric of Gaza is breaking down. People steal, loot and use the black market when they are desperate to survive and when civil functions are disrupted.

It's not "people", it's Hamas, doing what they always do. They're an organised crime racket as well as being terrorists.

@SomeCatFromJapan it's not all Hamas - the aid agencies are also being stoned and having food stolen

Unless Hamas is reduced to using sling-shots this is clearly the desperate starving local population

It's the breakdown of law and order which was predicted by the UN when it described
'the point of no return'

I dont know to be honest. Im enroute to fly in a bit so forgive me inaccuracies in dates/numbers, but in 2018 or so hundreds of peaceful Palestinians started a walk to freedom. They were peaceful and walked to reclaim land. A lot were shot and killed. In the last few years, there has been takeover of so many homes, lands and villages in Palestine, not to mention cold blooded shooting of civilians and imprisonment of minors and civilians without charge. I would begin by peace negotiations. Ban on settler violence. Enforced land boundaries eg in west bank. Protection of olive and date farms (they are burned down in hundreds). Equal civic rights (not an apartheid system of law). Clamp down on sexual abuse of men and women and children in false imprisonment.
Re after Oct 7th - investigation into how the attack happened. Hostage negotiations to first get hostages out. I don't know what else as I'm not well versed in foreign diplomacy or policy, that doesn't involve civilian mass murder and flattening Gaza but will think and come back (after my flight)

Okay I can imagine that starting to happen as desperation increasees, but I've seen enough footage of Hamas at it, including firing live rounds at civilians,.

UNWRA were describing it 3 days ago before any 'shooting videos' surfaced - I posted about it on another thread

A water tanker takes between 2,000-6,000 gallons, so, between 9,000-27,000 litres. Let’s split the difference and say on average water trucks can ship in 18,000L at a go. Humans require around 2L/day (I imagine they could survive on less but let’s use the ideal). You require 200 odd tanker trucks of water per day to give everyone in Gaza the water they requrie. This is approximately what crossed into Gaza every single day during the truce. Shame Hamas wouldn’t give up more hostages to extend it. And then broke it by firing more rockets at Israel.

ALTERNATIVELY:
A 12 inch pipe (relatively small bore), 41km long (the length of Gaza) pressurised at around 7 bar (relatively low pressure), can transfer around 2,500L per minute (presuming no additional pumping stations as there is no power in Gaza). So that would require 26 hours per day. So very nearly the entirety of Gazas water needs could be met by a single relatively small pipe and relatively small pumping station.

too bad Hamas ripped them up and turned them into fucking rockets isn’t it

Because this is what Israel has been doing for years. Supplying the Gaza Strip with water, and food, and fuel. Piping in water, gas, supplying electricity.

Again, what is happening is terrible- but please tell me what Israel should do when Hamas turn water pipes into rockets. What do you do with that? I imagine the logistics of ensuring that the 200-some trucks per day don’t contain any dual-use materials is an absolute pain. It would be far, far easier, and cheaper, to just pipe water in and have it run through pipes and be freely available. Water is pretty innocuous- it’s hard to use water to make explosives (not impossible, but requires a lot of other fairly specialised ingredients which I imagine are hard to get in Gaza). Imagine if Hamas had JUST ENOUGH humanity to allow their citizens water. But no, they’d rather kill some Jews than let their citizens drink.

Biden has also said that Israel is starting to “lose support” from the international community due to its indiscriminate bombing that has killed thousands of Palestinian civilians.

“They’re starting to lose that support,” Biden said during a Tuesday campaign event.

Biden added that Netanyahu needs to change his hardline government.

Oops sorry wrong thread and too late to edit

It's completely derailed anyway

UNWRA were describing it 3 days ago before any 'shooting videos' surfaced - I posted about it on another thread

I saw shooting videos a lot longer ago than three days.

It should also be said that Israel is insisting the current aid delays are UN/UNRWA stuff-up.
Obviously the knee-jerk response to that will be well Israel is lying, but I don't know how people can be so sure either way.

I'd be interested to see those videos please

Or at least tell me where to find them

Thanks

Depends how one you define bloody and brutal. If you define it as who has spilled the most blood of innocents, say children, then Israel’s IDF have been and are currently the most bloody and brutal entity in the region.

As to what should Israel do, ordering IDF to be less bloody and brutal would be a minor concession. Standing them down, pulling out of Gaza and West Bank. Ending the occupation.

Because it’s not the Israeli state infrastructure being targeted, it’s not IDF installations. This isn’t true.

Hamas stormed several IDF bases on Oct 7th. Hundreds of the victims were IDF soldiers. The news has focussed on Hamas’ war crime of attacking civilians and the atrocities they committed. The story of a military base being overrrun is not a shocker.

@Efacsen I think I saw most of them on the twitter account Gaza Report. I didn't save them though and I'm not going back and hunting, but here's the account anyway if you wish to:

UNWRA did respond to this
I posted it on a different thread too
They have been saying repeatedly for days that because of the situation on the ground and intense bombardment its not possible for them to deliver aid to certain areas and over time as it has gotten worse it has become increasingly difficult
I can't really blame them for it either as they are already risking their lives

Thanks @SomeCatFromJapan

Standing them down, pulling out of Gaza and West Bank. Ending the occupation.

The IDF can't pull out of Gaza now if it will leave Hamas in situ. Clearly. I do agree that Israel probably isn't the right choice to govern Gaza post-conflict.

UNWRA did respond to this
I posted it on a different thread too

I genuinely find it impossible to know who to believe much of the time. I don't find myself able to simpy take the UNWRA's word though, they appear quite compromised.

Yes this
Especially with what is happening right now regarding aid/border control/hospitals etc
I can't tell if people actually believe it or misinformed or then lying

@Hiddenmnetter
You require 200 odd tanker trucks of water per day to give everyone in Gaza the water they requrie. This is approximately what crossed into Gaza every single day during the truce..

No where near what crossed into Gaza during the truce. The average was 50 aid trucks and that was for all aid including food, medicine, water and even silly stuff like covid tests that were useless. Besides, there are only 3.7l per gallon so your maths is way off.

So very nearly the entirety of Gazas water needs could be met by a single relatively small pipe and relatively small pumping station.too bad Hamas ripped them up and turned them into fucking rockets isn’t it**

This is laughable really, that you are claiming Hamas caused the water problem in Gaza. Israel has always controlled the water in Gaza as part of the blockade and prior to that as part of the occupation from 1967. Israel turned it off the supply of water sent to Gaza from West Bank on Oct 7th and then it bombed the desalination plants that provided local water. The desalination plant was powered by the Gaza power plant, Israel refused to let in any fuel to power the generators and then bombed the power plant too. Gazans started using their solar panels to power local wells and water filters, and Israel spent two weeks targeting all solar panels in its airstrikes including the ones on hospital roofs that were powering hospital oxygen generators and premature infant NICU beds.

You know the water pipes Hamas used to make rockets? They were water pipes from abandoned Israeli settlements and the bombed and abandoned airport. They did not dig up any working water pipes.

Because this is what Israel has been doing for years. Supplying the Gaza Strip with water, and food, and fuel. Piping in water, gas, supplying electricity.
Israel has been controlling and under supplying water, food, fuel and power. They weren’t doing it to be nice, it was one of the means of oppression and control of the Palestinians.

Two or three weeks ago I spent the best part of an evening explaining to a poster very active on this thread how the Rafah crossing worked/the relationship between the blockade & the 'total siege' - you know factual stuff not matter of opinion stuff

Same old same old today

yes- but if you read through posts on this board, you will read how Netanyahu has encouraged the growth of Hamas. This allowed him to divide and conquer Palestinian movement and treat Gaza as a terrorist entity.

Those more versed in international law (lawyers and the UN) have been expressing concerns that excessive force is being used and potentially genocide. This can only be determined in a court, so I’m not so sure how you can categorically say genocide is not happening. Even the USA has asked for more care and accuracy in the bombing.