What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

On 9 October, the Israeli Government announced a “complete siege” of Gaza and called for civilians to evacuate northern Gaza

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9874/

I tend to think the UK government is unlikely to be misquoting a key ally

When politicians like Itamir ben gvir come to mind then Israel with some members of its current government doesn't seem too far off either

No country to my knowledge, and not Israel as this is not a genocide. It is a military operation aimed at eradicating Hamas whom puts their civilians in harm's way.

The thing is, the reason Israel aren’t being stopped is because they are pursuing military targets. They are abiding by the rules of war.

If you conceal valid military objectives behind civilians and civilian infrastructure, they become valid military targets.

If you use civilians as human shields, they become valid military targets.

If you use child soldiers, then they become enemy combatants.

This is part of a deliberate tactic by Hamas. They know that people won’t sit there and consider the actual legal position on the rules of war, because most people don’t know. They see people, often children, dead, and are outraged. They blame the people who shot them, or launched the rocket, or artillery, when in fact it is the fault of the people who turned them into valid military targets. Are you outraged when you see dead Russian or Ukranian soldiers? It’s sad, but it’s not an outrage- they’re soldiers, in a war. The outrage happens when Russia has deliberately targeted civilian infrastructure- because they have no reasonable excuse. Ukraine have a standing military, they have military bases and military equipment. Russia attack civilian infrastructure as part of a terror campaign. Israel aren’t doing this- they’re attacking legitimate military targets and causing collateral damage, which is expressly part of Hamas doctrine. Thats their intention- to erode popular support for Israel by throwing civilians into the line of fire.

By complete siege you mean they are refusing to give fuel, food, electricity and water to an enemy state? This baffles me- WHY do people think Israel is obliged to provide the enemy state with food, water, fuel and electricity? Why should they give to the country that has attacked them? ESPECIALLY when the leaders of that country have form for taking aid, preventing it going to the civilians it’s intended for, and using it to maintain a war against Israel. It’s fucking bonkers.

The question is why does Israel have full power to control someone else's water, fuel and energy, not to mention even collection of rainwater? The fact that they are able to, at will, switch this on and off is authoritian and fascist. Palestinians have a right to resist this blockade.

Israel committed to supply Gaza with water, gas and electricity as part of the Oslo Accords, to help Gaza become independent!

How is this a blockade?

They are helping them!

Israel provides free water and electric to the very enemy who wants to totally genocide them. What other nations does that or is even expected to do that? Hamas has billions of dollars going into Gaza and do they use it to help their citizens and care for their needs? No! They use it for weapons to attack Israel. Israel doesn't owe Gaza free anything. Gaza wants to be a real nation of their own its time they supplied their own needs. As for the two state solution, Gaza has been offered this 5 times and refused it. They like their welfare state. They can't have it both ways and they know it.

Also this whole "but Hamas" is really tiresome, especially since all of Israels brutalities have been enforced for Palestinians since the occupation of Palestine into Israel, long, long before Hamas even existed. We need to, in a separate thread, be able to talk about Israel and Palestine and moving forward to peace processes, without just reverting to but Hamas, because Hamas is a result OF Israels brutalities rather than the other way around as people would like to believe. Hamas exists because of Israels aggressions. Israel does not act brutal because of or regardless to Hamas.

because Hamas is a result OF Israels brutalities rather than the other way around as people would like to believe.

That's not factual. Hamas is an Islamist movement and anti-Semitism is at the heart of their doctrine.

Because in 2007 Gazans elected Hamas to lead them, who publicly declared they would wipe Israel from the map, and then proceeded to launch tens of thousands of rockets at Israel. So Israel responded by trying to prevent ‘dual-use’ materials (things that have both domestic and military application, like Diesel) to enter Gaza. Which, funnily enough, Egypt fully cooperates with. Because the last time a country allowed large numbers of Gazan refugees in (Jordan) Hamas attempted a coup and carried out terrorist attacks in Jordan.

Again, it’s fucking bonkers cause Israel kept doing things like building water supply pipes into Gaza, which Hamas duly ripped up…and turned into rockets to launch at Israel.

Can you see why Israel might use its military might to control the flow of goods across its border? Thing is this blockade didn’t exist until Hamas were elected. It’s hardly arbitrary, and basically every other country in the area supports it. Again, it’s awful for the ordinary Palestinians, but that’s not Israel’s fault- it’s Hamas.

What, practically, could Israel do to prevent the constant barrage of attacks against them? They’re obviously not allowed to retaliate (as this thread demonstrates), they’re not allowed to blockade, they’re not allowed to do anything except sit there, and get hit repeatedly by rocket attacks and apparently incursions that result in the rape, murder, kidnap and torture of 1,200+ of their citizens.

Again- it’s fucking bonkers.

What a load of rubbish.

Its roots are in the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, and it is supported by a robust sociopolitical structure inside the Palestinian territories. The group's charter calls for establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel and rejects all agreements made between the PLO and Israel.

Source:
https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html#:~:text=Its%20roots%20are%20in%20the,between%20the%20PLO%20and%20Israel.

Excellent to hear.

Because its the law

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule53#:~:text=that%20cause%20starvation-,Rule%2053.,method%20of%20warfare%20is%20prohibited.

It's just as simple as that.

Also Gaza isn't a country and Israel controls its borders so if Israel doesn't provide food and water then there isn't any. Half the population of Gaza is at risk of starvation.

The only country that can do anything about that Israel.

Why was Israel brutal before Hamas existed?

Israel was attacked immediately after declaring independence, and things continued in a similar vein with the 1967 Six Day war, plus a list of other events that wiki will be able to fill out for you, then the intifadas that saw a large loss of Israeli civilian life. So probably for those reasons.

“The whole ‘but Hamas’ thing is really tiresome”

I mean..it’s not really, is it? Because if you look at Israel’s actions without any context you might well think they’re awful. Except within the context of the decades long Hamas terrorism, it kind of makes a great deal of sense. It’s not “but Hamas do this, Hamas do that”. this isn’t whataboutery. Israel isn’t doing x, y, z because Hamas have done a, b and c and so if Hamas can do this then Israel can get away with that.

It is directly causal- in consequence of Hamas’ actions, Israel have taken steps to maintain their security. It’s not “oh but Hamas do awful things so why are we criticising Israel”- it’s literally because of what Hamas have done.

Again- the Palestinian dead are on Hamas’ hands. They make them targets, they want them dead. Israel are protecting the security of their country, as ALL nations do, and all would do in the same circumstance. Hamas is quite happy to have their own civilians die to make that expensive on the propaganda front.

Or Egypt could. But they won’t. But that’s still Israel’s fault. But Egypt have the same position because they know that Hamas strip the aid trucks so none of the aid actually gets to the civilians.

www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/video-shows-gunmen-stealing-from-aid-trucks-shooting-at-gaza-civilians/

@Hiddenmnetter I think you have really misunderstood the aid situation, where do you think it has been coming through since the start of the war and who is providing it?
Do you think egypt has sole control of the Rafah border?

@Hiddenmnetter an interesting response to Chris Hedges....

honestreporting.com/eyeless-in-gaza/

Where do YOU think the Palestinians should go?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/enough-is-enough-un-diplomats-visit-rafah-crossing-amid-concerns-over-dwindling-gaza-aid-13028263

With the truce collapsing about a week ago, the number of aid trucks entering Gaza has dwindled to sometimes not more than 50 a day. Nearly 90% of the 2.3 million citizens of Gaza are displaced, thousands are dead and wounded, and the number of operating hospitals reduced to a fraction compared to before the Hamas attack on Israel.

50 trucks a day for millions of people. Across what is effectively a pedestrian crossing.

And really that is entirely predictable given the social fabric of Gaza is breaking down. People steal, loot and use the black market when they are desperate to survive and when civil functions are disrupted.

So many mistruths about what's going in in Gaza and what has been going on there for decades.

I'm not sure if the posters are just ignorant or deliberately telling lies but either way it's depressing to read.

I guess you have to really warp reality to justify genocide so it makes sense on one level.