What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

We'll see. Serbian war criminals were protected for a long time and eventually enough pressure came to bear on Serbia to hand them over. Netanyahu doesn't seem particularly popular in some quarters so anything is possible.

But in general yes I expect Israel to protect its war criminals after the conflict.

I think a big problem with antisemitism on the left is their inability to see antisemitism.

Netanyahu doesn't seem particularly popular in some quarters so anything is possible.

Some quarters is an understatement, I think. But it must be strange times in Israel at present.

Considering that it is the Israeli PR that says that they know where Hamas is hiding and that they have almost captured a leader/s, their intelligence forces seem to be sadly lacking.

Why is Israel so right leaning but in contrast Jewish people in the US and UK very left?

It’s not, Israel is a pluralistic democracy and UK Jews are politically diverse

I did link this article earlier- but it may have been missed. I’ll link it again. There’s a lot of points, but consider the general thrust of the argument - as some points I am sure you’ll find clearly objectionable.

The “far” left tend to hold socialist values which may explain their anti-Zionism.

The article takes quite an egalitarian view of the situation between Palestinians and Jews, which also maybe why some on the left are anti-Zionism but don’t consider themselves antisemitic.

Of course you don’t have to agree with their point of view, but it’s not hard to see where it stems from given the experience of Palestinians since 1948.

https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic

A quick Google shows that Israel has generally elected a right wing government and yes I agree UK/US Jews are politically diverse but data does show they tend to be on the left.

I just wondered why that was the case

Can not work out how you came to that conclusion

Whilst waiting for a reply, I googled, this article breaks down some of the reasons for the current very right wing government.
Reasons listed included, change in demographics such as increase of ultra orthodox jews, reduced contact with Palestinians (or palestinian perspectives) and also a highly right wing influenced education and news system.

I'd be interested in hearing Jewish thoughts on this, if it's an accurate reflection or if you believe there are other reasons

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/2/23/23609584/israel-right-wing-young-voters-palestine

It all started with a mural of some hook-nosed bankers and an Illuminati symbol...

I'm enjoying someone coming on and telling a poster who said their friends were posting antisemitic stuff that it's not antisemitic and their friends just have a better grasp of history than them without even knowing what the posts were.

I think most Jewish people around the world tend to be more left leaning. However in the case of Israel they seem to have have security reasons that make them feel only a right wing government will protect them properly. Softer governments have happened and it hasn't gone well security wise. Plus you have people like the vile settler groups that help to properly up a right wing government.

Saying all that most people in Israel still seem to have left leaning politics in general. The current government have failed badly re security recently. Therefore I think the idea of only a right wing government protecting them properly has gone out the window. Apparently though the military operation since the pogrom has support from the general public. The handling of it, hostages negotiations and international relations won't be forgiven. So basically no matter what happens the current Israel government are likely Bye bye and the possibility for a government that is better representation of the Israeli people is very likely.

@Struggggggling I don't know the answer but imagine security will be a huge factor. US/UK Jews haven't spent the last few decades living under the daily threat of rockets being fired from Gaza.

Do you even know what a colonial power is?

Thank you. I actually hope it is as you say - unable to spot antisemitism, and they need to educate themselves - rather than what I’ve got an uneasy gut feeling it actually is - just plain antisemitism.

I was addressing their post about being Zionist. Zionists believe that criticising Israel is Anti-Semitic which is simply not true. Many Jews have felt frustrated that Zionists make that link. For many, identifying as a Zionist supporter is like saying you support the National Front.

No, Zionists do not believe that. I feel like maybe you don't really know what a Zionist is?

Precisely none of this is correct.

Oooh just came across your previous post. Just out of interest, where do you think Jews originally came from? And what exactly do you think anti-zionist means? Do you mean what it appears to mean, ie that the state of Israel shouldn't exist?

Actually I agree that I don't know what the posts were and they may be Antisemitic. Hopefully not. There is just an awful lot of accusations of Antisemitism which is being conflated with being Pro Palestinian. This is seriously wrong not to mention slanderous. Zionists have done this repeatedly and the OP mentioned being a Zionist supporter.

But yes, we do not know what the posts were to make a judgement.

I am simply not explaining it again tonight

Can not be bothered

At least when they go on like that it proves a point about dodgy posts on mumsnet I suppose

You still seem to be unclear on what a Zionist is. What is your understanding of it?

Jews have lived in Palestine alongside Muslims for thousands of years. They have every right to be there.

But they do not have the right to expel Arab Muslims (and Christians) from their homes and kill them when they object.

Many Jews (including those who lived in Palestine before the state of Israel was created) agree with this.

I have a question which I would prefer someone who considers themselves to be pro-Israeli to answer if they don't mind please. Or I don't know if pro-Israeli is the correct term or if i should be using a different term so please do correct me if that is the case

During this current conflict I have seen that there has been two criticisms of Israel that has been to some extent done by both allies and non allies

The first is criticism is of the government policies about settlements and also behaviour of settlers in the west bank. In regards to that most say that they also to some extent agree to this

The second criticism which has varied to different degrees has been the government's handling of the war and the disproportionate use of force
However with the second criticism most posters will mostly disagree and also at times say those who say this are unreasonable/deluded etc and at times it can lead to insults or quite a aggressive tone (by some not all)

Is it because most posters are of the view that all the military action in Gaza right now is 100% justified and those who show alarm towards it are unreasonable in doing so? It's something I'm finding abit difficult to understand as most also say they don't like Netanyahu but then defend his actions in the war

I just want to clarify that it's not in regards to Israel having the right to defend itself but more so for those who criticise or show concern in the way it is doing so

Right, ok, let's pretend what you're saying is a perfectly accurate reflection of what happened. (It isn't, but let's pretend for this post)

Where do you think Jews who were left with nothing after the Holocaust should have gone? Where should Jews persecuted and displaced from Arab countries (about 900 000 of them) have gone? Seeing as you say you're anti-zionist, you clearly don't think the state of Israel should exist. So where should the millions of current Israelis go?