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Conflict in the Middle East

What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

1000 replies

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 18:34

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

OP posts:
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45
bness · 11/12/2023 11:32

Spoonz · 11/12/2023 11:24

I absolutely agree.

Land conflicts happen. They are a constant part of history.

All my great, great grandparents were expelled from Eastern Europe in the late 1800s/early 1900s. They lost everything. Homes, businesses, land. This was just 50 years before 1948.

I remember my great grandfather talk about the family history with sadness. But reclaiming the land was never on the family radar (also an impossibility).

We were lucky we emigrated to a place we could make home. We were lucky our leaders didn’t keep us in poverty and use us as pawns as they spent billions on revenge (and mansions in Qatar).

Except it's not History, it's present. Palestinians are living through Israels illegal and brutal land grabs constantly, every day. 2022 and 2023 were terrible years For West Bank residents. Because it "happens" and has "happened" does that make it okay?
Slavery also happened in the past, should we just turn a blind eye if it happens now?
Is "never again* just a glib phrase that sounds good but actually means nothing as long as that again is happening to someone else?

cauliflowerwaterfall · 11/12/2023 11:32

Israel is not committing war crimes.

This is actually more of an essay than a tweet, but highly recommend taking a few minutes to read:
https://x.com/cptallenhistory/status/1723037202458857836?s=46&t=67qt1M7Rh6bcgFF_aUML9g

https://x.com/cptallenhistory/status/1723037202458857836?s=46&t=67qt1M7Rh6bcgFF_aUML9g

dreamingdays · 11/12/2023 11:35

cauliflowerwaterfall · 11/12/2023 11:32

Israel is not committing war crimes.

This is actually more of an essay than a tweet, but highly recommend taking a few minutes to read:
https://x.com/cptallenhistory/status/1723037202458857836?s=46&t=67qt1M7Rh6bcgFF_aUML9g

Biscuit
untitledmum · 11/12/2023 11:36

@dreamingdays
Just this morning COGAT announced that there are lines of lorries with aid waiting at the Eygpt/Gaza crossing for the UN to inspect and allow through. The UN have yet to respond.
So this morning, Israel have agreed to open up their own border crossing to allow urgent aid through. I'll repeat this. Israel is opening up Keren Hashalom to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza. To its enemies.

Humdingerydoo · 11/12/2023 11:36

bness · 11/12/2023 11:32

Except it's not History, it's present. Palestinians are living through Israels illegal and brutal land grabs constantly, every day. 2022 and 2023 were terrible years For West Bank residents. Because it "happens" and has "happened" does that make it okay?
Slavery also happened in the past, should we just turn a blind eye if it happens now?
Is "never again* just a glib phrase that sounds good but actually means nothing as long as that again is happening to someone else?

Settlers in the West Bank are a big problem. Many, many Israelis protest against what the settlers are doing. They should all be kicked out and those who have committed acts of violence should obviously be sent to jail.

It doesn't seem to have much relevance with the current war though? Gaza doesn't have any settlers.

dreamingdays · 11/12/2023 11:38

untitledmum · 11/12/2023 11:36

@dreamingdays
Just this morning COGAT announced that there are lines of lorries with aid waiting at the Eygpt/Gaza crossing for the UN to inspect and allow through. The UN have yet to respond.
So this morning, Israel have agreed to open up their own border crossing to allow urgent aid through. I'll repeat this. Israel is opening up Keren Hashalom to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza. To its enemies.

Even if it is allowed in, I suspect it will be a trickle in the ocean vs what's needed.

And regardless, how dare they withhold adequate aid for so long already.

Disgusting.

Pizdietz · 11/12/2023 11:38

Trulywonderful · 11/12/2023 00:52

Sorry Stepford wives?

I don't understand

Well that's a very good question, isn't it... 🤦‍♀️

I'm glad you asked it, because at that point I realised how drunk I was 🥳 and finally stepped away from the keyboard!!!!!!! 😜 I wasn't quite typing with one eye shut, but nearly...

Top marks to anyone who attempted to engage with me last night, and a big 👏🏻 to the posters like @FixItUpChappie , @Trulywonderful , @noblegiraffe and @cauliflowerwaterfall who made some great points that actually (unlike mine) addressed the OP's question ⭐

Parkingt111 · 11/12/2023 11:38

Maybe some will see my stance as defeatist. And I know it doesn't even seem possible right now but despite the horrors we see on the news, I don't think many have still comprehended the reality of how inhumane and horrific it is for many civilians in Gaza right now

Parkingt111 · 11/12/2023 11:42

@Humdingerydoo actually the settlements and settlers do play a part in this war. They are a part of the ongoing oppression or the Palestinians as a whole
I really do appreciate that yourself and many others have called out the behaviour of the settlers but unfortunately this doesn't help those who are inflicted by their terror in anyway.

It is the government that is to blame for it and until they don't change their views and policies then not much else can change their situation

Spoonz · 11/12/2023 11:44

bness · 11/12/2023 11:32

Except it's not History, it's present. Palestinians are living through Israels illegal and brutal land grabs constantly, every day. 2022 and 2023 were terrible years For West Bank residents. Because it "happens" and has "happened" does that make it okay?
Slavery also happened in the past, should we just turn a blind eye if it happens now?
Is "never again* just a glib phrase that sounds good but actually means nothing as long as that again is happening to someone else?

We should not turn a blind eye to slavery. But we should not victimise every single descendant of slaves… and spend repatriations on revenge.

West Bank is not Gaza. Like many Israelis, I do not agree with the current governments policy in the West Bank.

Humdingerydoo · 11/12/2023 12:02

Parkingt111 · 11/12/2023 11:42

@Humdingerydoo actually the settlements and settlers do play a part in this war. They are a part of the ongoing oppression or the Palestinians as a whole
I really do appreciate that yourself and many others have called out the behaviour of the settlers but unfortunately this doesn't help those who are inflicted by their terror in anyway.

It is the government that is to blame for it and until they don't change their views and policies then not much else can change their situation

The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are different people, in the sense that the things they are going through aren't the same and have very different needs. They have suffered in very different ways. That's why they've ended up with two different political parties being elected. That's why people keep pointing out that Hamas aren't in charge of the West Bank. They have different leaderships and different struggles as a result.

That's my interpretation of it anyway.

Either way, both parts are struggling and I hope they get their own state soon. I think it being two separate parcels of land will always add to the difficulties, and I'm not sure what the solution is.

Trulywonderful · 11/12/2023 12:04

YetAnotherSpartacus · 11/12/2023 11:19

Go even further as in.. Expand the land even more? Continue bombing Lebanon and Syria to build more homes? Spread even more white phosprous and salt water to kill, maim, flood and destroy whoever is left?

You really are being very silly.

They posted that

Well that is something isn't it

Parkingt111 · 11/12/2023 12:07

@Humdingerydoo I hope so too.
Although right now a two state solution doesn't seem likely to happen but who knows, maybe one day in the future it will

Trulywonderful · 11/12/2023 12:11

untitledmum · 11/12/2023 11:36

@dreamingdays
Just this morning COGAT announced that there are lines of lorries with aid waiting at the Eygpt/Gaza crossing for the UN to inspect and allow through. The UN have yet to respond.
So this morning, Israel have agreed to open up their own border crossing to allow urgent aid through. I'll repeat this. Israel is opening up Keren Hashalom to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza. To its enemies.

Israel said yesterday that they have capacity to security check 240 lorries a day but other agencies( He mentioned charities I believe) are not doing their bit at the moment. The Israeli sounded unimpressed by their lack of urgency or something.

Trulywonderful · 11/12/2023 12:12

Parkingt111 · 11/12/2023 12:07

@Humdingerydoo I hope so too.
Although right now a two state solution doesn't seem likely to happen but who knows, maybe one day in the future it will

Fingers crossed but I believe it will eventually happen

Trulywonderful · 11/12/2023 12:15

Pizdietz · 11/12/2023 11:38

Well that's a very good question, isn't it... 🤦‍♀️

I'm glad you asked it, because at that point I realised how drunk I was 🥳 and finally stepped away from the keyboard!!!!!!! 😜 I wasn't quite typing with one eye shut, but nearly...

Top marks to anyone who attempted to engage with me last night, and a big 👏🏻 to the posters like @FixItUpChappie , @Trulywonderful , @noblegiraffe and @cauliflowerwaterfall who made some great points that actually (unlike mine) addressed the OP's question ⭐

😂

Well at least you are honest about it

Sometimes I do read posts in the evening thinking surely this person is completely wasted. Now I know that is a real possibility

Hope your head isn't hurting today ❤

Trulywonderful · 11/12/2023 12:20

I think most people have talked about everything but Keir Starmer and the current Labour party

Maybe we should have a go at talking about him snd the party in general considering the title thread 😂

AdamRyan · 11/12/2023 12:35

Yeah go on. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts given the current Labour position is identical to the Conservative position.
Also Starmer's wife and children are Jewish and Jewish party members have said the party is unrecognisable from the Corbyn era.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/05/margaret-hodge-left-wing-antisemitism-qa-00125285

All credit to [current Labour leader] Keir Starmer — I thought it would take five years, eight years. He has been so single-minded and actually totally, totally focused, we got rid of it very quickly.

‘I Just Couldn’t Take It’: How a Jewish Politician Decided to Confront Left-Wing Antisemitism

Margaret Hodge battled Jeremy Corbyn in Parliament. Now she’s managing the fallout from the Israel-Hamas war.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/05/margaret-hodge-left-wing-antisemitism-qa-00125285

Dulra · 11/12/2023 12:36

etmoiandme · 11/12/2023 11:12

@Dulra She didn't say criticism of the Israeli govt is antisemitic. Making things up is really unhelpful.

Well you're seriously splitting hairs here, she said criticism of Israel's right to defend itself is antisemitic. It is the government of the day who decides how they defend and that is what people are criticising, so I don't accept that I'm making things up, if anything it was the suggestion that people are criticising Israel's right to defend itself that is a twist on what people are saying, it is clear people are critical of how they are defending themselves

Xenia · 11/12/2023 13:00

I am not left wing but am glad both Labour and the Tory parties in the UK support Israel (as do I). As for a solution, I thought it was a pity the Financial Times in this article today did not come up with a solution https://on.ft.com/47TCADe. If there is no solution then it will remain a mess. May be Israel needs to build very big de militarised empty zones on the borders with Gaza and the West Bank so Hamas and Hezbollah are kept at bay, separate and apart.

Israel, Palestine and the mirage of a two-state solution

Rebuilding Gaza will require a long-term vision for Palestine

https://on.ft.com/47TCADe

Pizdietz · 11/12/2023 13:01

HeidiInTheBigCity · 10/12/2023 21:18

That would be because ... again: it is a simple matter of "international law":

Israel is an occupying power opposite the people of Gaza. As an occupying power, Israel is obliged to ensure the well-being of the people it occupies. Israel is responsible for the well-being of Gazans because Israel is the occupying power.

As for Hamas (or any other Palestinian faction): they do have a right to resist - including via the means of armed resistance - their occupation. In doing so, they are bound by the same rules that apply to other conflicts: they have got to be proportional and have got to meaningfully discriminate between civilian and military targets. They arguably failed to comply with the latter principle on 7/10.

Also, again: one atrocity does not justify another. Therefore "but ... Hamas!" does not get Israel out of its responsibilities.

It is really not that hard!

Now that I am sober!!!!!!! 😜

People on this thread have denied seeing any pro-Hamas posts, and yet here's a truly shocking one in plain sight, earlier on this thread:

"As for Hamas (or any other Palestinian faction): they do have a right to resist - including via the means of armed resistance - their occupation. In doing so, they are bound by the same rules that apply to other conflicts: they have got to be proportional and have got to meaningfully discriminate between civilian and military targets. They arguably failed to comply with the latter principle on 7/10."

Really, this is a gobsmackingly clear voice of support and I'm guessing others hesitate to report it for the same reasons as me: it's better to be able to see people's cards on the table.

There are plenty of others, e.g. bness's "Maybe by learning to co exist in peace and give rights to Palestinians (in their own country ffs), there would be no need for brutal resistance, the existence of a terrorist group or attacks."

As for this constant barrage of accusing Israel of war crimes, a PP posted this, which explains very clearly why this is a false judgement:
https://twitter.com/cptallenhistory/status/1723037202458857836?s=46&t=67qt1M7Rh6bcgFF_aUML9g

Based on reports of bombs dropped vs people killed, it's been estimated that Israel has dropped several thousand pounds of explosives for each individual person killed. If indiscriminate carpet bombing and genocide was really their goal, this is clearly not the way to go about it.

It's also a bit of a headfuck holding Israel responsible for lack of food, water and medical aid in Gaza. If their government had spent the past couple of decades building up the infrastructure instead of creating a rat’s nest of tunnels and stockpiling weapons with the sole intent of obliterating Israel, they wouldn’t need to rely on charity. Also, if Hamas could be trusted not to intercept aid for its own purposes, it might be a different story.

Israel is being asked to feed the hand that bites.

Of course war is horrible, that’s why sane governments try to avoid them instead of deliberately starting one.

There's also a heap of stuff on here like
it's been proven that Isreal [sic] lied about babies being beheaded
It's the "Israel lied" that's so misleading, as though these stories were just invented for propaganda reasons and did not originate from traumatised forensic teams and medics. Like the hideous snickering that somehow in the immediate aftermath of the 7 Oct traumas, no one bothered to test women with rape kits, as though that was a clear priority so that we'd have proper rubber-stamped evidence.

Going back to OP's original question: those posting on here about how awful Israel is (and no one is denying they have a shit government), do you see Palestine as the underdog and Israel as some kind of big swaggering "Western" power?

Let's face it, none of us has any real clue about decisions being made and all the factors playing into them from one moment to the next. Discussing it on here is all just playing at puppet theatre like Punch and Judy, with each of us arguing over which one is which.

https://twitter.com/cptallenhistory/status/1723037202458857836?s=46&t=67qt1M7Rh6bcgFF_aUML9g

Trulywonderful · 11/12/2023 13:02

Starmer having a Jewish wife and children should not be a talking point for anyone

Why is it even thought of as necessary to be mentioned? My husband's family is Christian and my husband is an Atheist. He used to vote Liberal Democrat until that party went pop. Now he votes Green. His family background and his own politics has nothing to do with how I vote or think.

Plus have you seen the videos of people making comments about his wife. That is below the belt at best (She is not a public figure) and racist at worse.

The fact it is mentioned his wife and children are Jewish by some kind of proves a point in itself

Toothyfruity · 11/12/2023 13:05

Pizdietz · 11/12/2023 11:38

Well that's a very good question, isn't it... 🤦‍♀️

I'm glad you asked it, because at that point I realised how drunk I was 🥳 and finally stepped away from the keyboard!!!!!!! 😜 I wasn't quite typing with one eye shut, but nearly...

Top marks to anyone who attempted to engage with me last night, and a big 👏🏻 to the posters like @FixItUpChappie , @Trulywonderful , @noblegiraffe and @cauliflowerwaterfall who made some great points that actually (unlike mine) addressed the OP's question ⭐

In vino veritas.

I think you made your thoughts on the plight of the people of Gaza pretty clear.

Trulywonderful · 11/12/2023 13:07

Pizdietz · 11/12/2023 13:01

Now that I am sober!!!!!!! 😜

People on this thread have denied seeing any pro-Hamas posts, and yet here's a truly shocking one in plain sight, earlier on this thread:

"As for Hamas (or any other Palestinian faction): they do have a right to resist - including via the means of armed resistance - their occupation. In doing so, they are bound by the same rules that apply to other conflicts: they have got to be proportional and have got to meaningfully discriminate between civilian and military targets. They arguably failed to comply with the latter principle on 7/10."

Really, this is a gobsmackingly clear voice of support and I'm guessing others hesitate to report it for the same reasons as me: it's better to be able to see people's cards on the table.

There are plenty of others, e.g. bness's "Maybe by learning to co exist in peace and give rights to Palestinians (in their own country ffs), there would be no need for brutal resistance, the existence of a terrorist group or attacks."

As for this constant barrage of accusing Israel of war crimes, a PP posted this, which explains very clearly why this is a false judgement:
https://twitter.com/cptallenhistory/status/1723037202458857836?s=46&t=67qt1M7Rh6bcgFF_aUML9g

Based on reports of bombs dropped vs people killed, it's been estimated that Israel has dropped several thousand pounds of explosives for each individual person killed. If indiscriminate carpet bombing and genocide was really their goal, this is clearly not the way to go about it.

It's also a bit of a headfuck holding Israel responsible for lack of food, water and medical aid in Gaza. If their government had spent the past couple of decades building up the infrastructure instead of creating a rat’s nest of tunnels and stockpiling weapons with the sole intent of obliterating Israel, they wouldn’t need to rely on charity. Also, if Hamas could be trusted not to intercept aid for its own purposes, it might be a different story.

Israel is being asked to feed the hand that bites.

Of course war is horrible, that’s why sane governments try to avoid them instead of deliberately starting one.

There's also a heap of stuff on here like
it's been proven that Isreal [sic] lied about babies being beheaded
It's the "Israel lied" that's so misleading, as though these stories were just invented for propaganda reasons and did not originate from traumatised forensic teams and medics. Like the hideous snickering that somehow in the immediate aftermath of the 7 Oct traumas, no one bothered to test women with rape kits, as though that was a clear priority so that we'd have proper rubber-stamped evidence.

Going back to OP's original question: those posting on here about how awful Israel is (and no one is denying they have a shit government), do you see Palestine as the underdog and Israel as some kind of big swaggering "Western" power?

Let's face it, none of us has any real clue about decisions being made and all the factors playing into them from one moment to the next. Discussing it on here is all just playing at puppet theatre like Punch and Judy, with each of us arguing over which one is which.

Well you definitely post better when sober. Good post.

Livinginanotherworld · 11/12/2023 13:10

Pizdietz · 11/12/2023 11:38

Well that's a very good question, isn't it... 🤦‍♀️

I'm glad you asked it, because at that point I realised how drunk I was 🥳 and finally stepped away from the keyboard!!!!!!! 😜 I wasn't quite typing with one eye shut, but nearly...

Top marks to anyone who attempted to engage with me last night, and a big 👏🏻 to the posters like @FixItUpChappie , @Trulywonderful , @noblegiraffe and @cauliflowerwaterfall who made some great points that actually (unlike mine) addressed the OP's question ⭐

Christ, no wonder you were talking shit then 🙄

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