What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

Was talking to yetanothetspartacus not you. She directly addressed me.

You could have had a reasonable argument there. Something people should think about but the last sentence ruined it. Why add a sentence like that to what is a good argument about people's attitudes to Arab and Jew history on the land. Plus sometimes talking about the Nakba is relevant to a conversation and sometimes not. I didn't notice where it started to be mentioned so won't comment on if relevant but it is part of the history just like the many massacres of Jewish people then on the land. These things are often ignored or pushed aside by pushed aside by people, when the history before 1948 is often relevant.

@bness The Nakba happened. After the Balfour Declaration the British controlled Palestinian mandate was given to the Jews and Arabs who were opposing the British Ottoman's decision chose to revolt. They lost the war and therefore lost the land. Israel offered them back half the land with a 2 state solution and its been rejected time and time again.
Can you explain to me why the Palestinians have not accepted any of the proposed 2 state resolutions?

We will have to agree to disagree. I don't think you get to dismiss how people feel about their own history as 'propaganda'. People are entitled to their feelings about their ancestors being driven from their homes, no matter how it was done or 'won'.

As an Irish person I wouldn't accept a British person telling me how I should feel about our history or dimissing my feelings as 'propaganda'. I would find it incredibly offensive to be honest.

My father’s family were Persian Jews, they had probably a few houses in my direct line of descent before they were forced to flee. My mum’s family came from Eastern Europe during the pogroms, one ancestor owned a shop that was burned down. I also have family killed in the Holocaust that were living in Belgium and the Netherlands whose land was presumably absorbed by the state after their deaths. My question: do you not think there’s a difference between remembrance of the past, which is what Jews do, vs needlessly prolonging an endless war trying to “correct” the past and make it go your way? Do I have a right to go and turf out whoever owns all those homes and shops now in 2023? Are you protesting for my “right of return”? And not just to the same geographic area like the Palestinians already have, but to the exact street address? Before my family was kicked out of Iran, Russia, Belgium, Netherlands they were kicked out of quite a few places (all the way back to Israel) so I must have quite the portfolio of land.

There is nothing special about the year 1948 any more than there is about 1953 or the late 1800s that means the “who is sitting where” clock needs to be reset back to that time. The PA are not trying to build a future for Palestinians they are trying to rewrite the past, and causing countless deaths doing so.

Do I have a right to go and turf out whoever owns all those homes and shops now in 2023?

Yet here we are in 2023 with Palestinians being turfed out of their homes and land. It never stopped. It isn't history. It is the present.

From personal experience, I'm a Jewish descendant of Holocaust survivor living here in the UK. A security I've always relied on is the knowledge that if God forbid there was ever a threatening rise of anti-Semitism in the UK or a situation of persecution of Jews I know that Israel will always take me in. Having a strong Israel is vital for Jewish continuity.
And given the insane rise in antisemitic incidents I've experienced in my area over the past few weeks, such as "Kills the Jews", had an egg thrown at, and more, I feel this fear acutely.
So having people here on MN, deny Israel the right to defend itself, feels very threatening to all Jews and I'd call it antisemitic.

@cauliflowerwaterfall Do I have a right to go and turf out whoever owns all those homes and shops now in 2023? Absolutely not so I assume with that sentence you disagree with illegal occupations of Israeli settlements in the West Bank?

Exactly this. It's not History. People living in their homes in West Bank are being turfed out every day. Acres of olive trees are being burned down (if you are truly "native" to a land, would you burn it down, or lovingly tend to it?) houses demolished, people killed, rights curtailed. Its happening in the NOW. With or without Hamas. Do those Palestinians not have a right to resist people coming to their ancestral homes from all over the world and chucking them out of their houses because God promised it was actually theirs?

@untitledmum

I think the issue, frankly, is the definition of "defend". Of course any sovereign nation has the the right to defend itself. It does not have the right to commit war crimes.

Agree & after October 7 and the reaction in the west, I’d go even further… I’m starting to believe Israel is the only place Jews have a long-term future

I am really sorry you are feeling such fear living in the UK at the moment but I completely disagree that criticism of the government of Israel is antisemitic. No country should have free reign to do what they choose, every nation and government should be open to criticism, why should Israel be any different? People are not necessarily criticising Israel's right to defend itself but the disproportionate way it is doing it and the mounting innocent deaths in its campaign.

Israel is not "defending itself" by withholding the food, water, aid and safety of millions of innocent civilians. Defending itself against Hamas does not include war crimes, bombing safe zones, killing journalists, and sadistic measures against innocent civilians and children. This is the crux of the matter.

Nobody is denying Israels right to defend itself, but it is not a free pass to simply defend however they want in violation of international law. You also need to consider Israels own actions - are settlers turfing out people from their homes Israels right to defend itself, or burning down olive trees in their thousands? What about false imprisonment of children in the middle of the night without trial or rape and sodomy of Palestinian "prisoners" who are held without trial, or murder of journalists in cold blood in public. How are any of these Israels right to defend? Likewise, while Oct 7th was an absolute abomination, does Israel not have a responsibility to fight back within reason - their own genocidal statements of flattening Gaza, death to Arabs, all Palestinians are terrorists (these have been repeated on MN too), use of white phosphorus, planting of false evidence, rounding up, stripping and killing civilians - all of which are in violation of international law - is that Israel defending itself, or just fulfilling its aims to taking all the land that they believe was promised to them, with the spilling of Palestinian blood only a minor inconvenience or a bare necessity in fulfilling that aim?

Go further as in?

@Dulra She didn't say criticism of the Israeli govt is antisemitic. Making things up is really unhelpful.

Go even further as in.. Expand the land even more? Continue bombing Lebanon and Syria to build more homes? Spread even more white phosprous and salt water to kill, maim, flood and destroy whoever is left?

You really are being very silly.

I'm referring to bness who has edited the post now.

We should have a bingo card for whenever anyone suggests we are motivated by messages from God 🙄

Some facts for you:

• Most of the kibbutzes attacked on October 7th are pre-1948 settlements which were established on empty land. Nobody was removed from anywhere, they were constructed on an empty bit of desert. The murder, rape, torture, and kidnapping of civilians on those kibbutzes is not “resistance” it’s terrorism.
• Jews are an ethnoreligious group. Jews are a people; Judaism is a religion practiced by some of those people. Secular Jews exist.
• The story of the Hebrew exodus from slavery in Egypt and establishment of the first Israel on land gifted by God has got nothing to do with how modern day Jews justify the modern day state of Israel. The modern day justification is that Jews have human rights including the right to self-determination.
• You don’t have to believe it word for word. A mythologised history of foundation is not unique to Jews, the value of these ancient stories is they prove a link between people and land. Some archaeologists think that Exodus did not actually happen and Israelites were in fact indigenous to……… the Levant.

I fully agree that Israel should absolutely not be killing civilians intentionally. I know from firsthand recounts from IDF soldiers that I have connections to that they are told to do all they can not to harm civilians. They are commanded to do their utmost to keep to international law. The problem they are facing is that during urban warfare it is virtually impossible to avoid high civilian casualties. This is multiplied exponentially when the enemy is dressed as civilians and hides amongst its civilians. The point I'm making is that Israel is doing its utmost to avoid war crimes.

Just this morning Hamas fired over 10 rockets from Gaza into central Israel, until Hamas is eradicated I don't see space for a ceasefire. So the "proportional response" is to get rid of Hamas.

They edited the post now but yes very silly

When my ancestors came to the UK they were told “we don’t want people who don’t speak the language”… well now here I am speaking the language perfectly and getting blamed for a turn of phrase 😂

I absolutely agree.

Land conflicts happen. They are a constant part of history.

All my great, great grandparents were expelled from Eastern Europe in the late 1800s/early 1900s. They lost everything. Homes, businesses, land. This was just 50 years before 1948.

I remember my great grandfather talk about the family history with sadness. But reclaiming the land was never on the family radar (also an impossibility).

We were lucky we emigrated to a place we could make home. We were lucky our leaders didn’t keep us in poverty and use us as pawns as they spent billions on revenge (and mansions in Qatar).

*And please don't forward me videos of evidence of Israel's "war crimes". I've seen them all. Unless you have personal first hand evidence I wouldn't trust anything online.

Israel is committing war crimes left right and centre.

War crimes that are easily avoidable.

They are clearly not doing all they can to avoid harm coming to civilians.

They are killing journalists. They are bombing schools. They are bombing refugee camps.

They are witholding the food and water of millions. This is a WAR CRIME.

This is why the world is disgusted.

I do actually know people in Gaza and the occupied west bank, I won't go into detail but the reality on the ground with how IDF soldiers treat ordinary civilians is anything but how you describe it.
I don't doubt that there may be some that are good but there are many many who are not.
Its one of the reasons why in recent days I have been repeatedly saying that anyone who can be saved in Gaza now should be saved in any way possible as the alternative is death or to some extent maybe even worse than that