What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

You’ve lost the plot now, of course they are committing war crimes, they’d committed well over 50 several weeks ago.

So, kicking more Palestinians out of their homes then? Making Palestinians life even worse?

Why is it that Palestinians are always left out of this part?
You don’t care you harm, as long as you get what you want.

But they’ve done all that, it’s a fact. White phosphorus was used again yesterday. Lebanon and Syria were bombed yesterday. It’s a fact.

I can’t comment about the salt water, but they were planning to do it.

Why, thank you. At least I had a good reason! 🥳 😜

That is not my opinion, though - it is that of the literal ICRC. See, for example here: https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/law9_final.pdf

Quote:
After effective occupation of territory, members of the territory’s armed forces who have not surrendered, organized resistance movements and genuine national liberation movements may resist the occupation.

Or here: UNGA resolution 37/43 (1982)

Quote: reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle.

As I pointed out, the same rules - specifically: those of proportionality and discrimination between military and civilian targets - apply to armed resistance to occupation as they do to state actors. In other words: you do not get to attack civilians, that is a war crime - it is still legal to resist occupation, though, including by military means.

"Legal" does not equal "optimal", nor "I like it". There are plenty of things that are legal and that I do not personally support.

You might want to learn how to distinguish factual statements from opinions.

Your emojis on a thread discussing human suffering are really inappropriate

Think you tagged the wrong person I don't think I have spoken to you or tagged any of you posts or spoke about anything you wrote

I could be wrong mind but can't remember

100% agree with this.

Jews aren't safe in Israel, there are many examples of State sponsored action against certain Jewish groups both presently and historically

Ethiopian Jews who were/are being secretly sterilised
The discrimination and racism towards Mizrahi Jews, Ethiopian Jews etc
The Yenenite children affair where one in eight children disappeared by government removal.

It's becoming clearer and clearer that Israel is the land for the European Jews

Palestinians, as any other nation, people, community now or through history have a right to resist brutal occupation, murder and imprisonment. This is basic and not a support of a specific terrorist group but a fact.

The only way freedom has ever been achieved for anyone is through resistance movements not by trusting the occupier that they will be just. This is true for most if not all examples of gaining rights whether it's for women's rights to vote and own property, de segregation, colonial forces etc.

You really are going to go there with the temporary contraceptive injection on repeat prescription being given by accident because some doctors were stupid enough not to get a translator. A automatic repeat prescription have the contraceptive injection is normal practice in Israel. The some refugees from Ethiopia had chosen to have the injection in clearing camp there. So when they got to Israel and it was due next it was automatically given.

Nobody was secretly sterilised. Some doctors just mucked up and didn't get a translator in to ask consent for a temporary repeat contraceptive injection

After a problem was realised a decree by the Israel’s health minister, gynecologists have been ordered “not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.”

Sorry no idea what the rest of your post says once I saw Forced Sterilisation used to describe a contraceptive injection I stopped reading

The Depo injection isn't sterilisation.

That doesn't mean I think it's even remotely acceptable that women were administered the injection secretly and without consent - it's obviously beyond disgraceful. Your comment is not factual though so you might want to edit it.

What's the discrimination against Mizrahi Jews you mention? You say it as though it's a well-known and government-sanctioned event, but I've not heard of it. So feel free to back up your claims with evidence. Please, no Tiktoks. I don't have an account so can't watch them anyway. Same for X.

I did mean it and Israel did do it, salt water was intended but the rest and much was and is done. I only deleted bc it wasn't really related to topic, otherwise this is all Israels actions before and during this current conflict.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html

From the article for anyone who wishes to read it:

Israel has admitted for the first time that it has been giving Ethiopian Jewish immigrants birth-control injections, often without their knowledge or consent.
The government had previously denied the practice but the Israeli Health Ministry’s director-general has now ordered gynaecologists to stop administering the drugs. According a report in Haaretz, suspicions were first raised by an investigative journalist, Gal Gabbay, who interviewed more than 30 women from Ethiopia in an attempt to discover why birth rates in the community had fallen dramatically.

One of the Ethiopian women who was interviewed is quoted as saying: “They [medical staff] told us they are inoculations. We took it every three months. We said we didn’t want to.” It is alleged that some of the women were forced or coerced to take the drug while in transit camps in Ethiopia.

The drug in question is thought to be Depo-Provera, which is injected every three months and is considered to be a highly effective, long-lasting contraceptive.

Nearly 100,000 Ethiopian Jews have moved to Israel under the Law of Return since the 1980s, but their Jewishness has been questioned by some rabbis. Last year, the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who also holds the health portfolio, warned that illegal immigrants from Africa “threaten our existence as a Jewish and democratic state”.

Haaretz published an extract from a letter sent by the Ministry of Health to units administering the drug. Doctors were told “not to renew prescriptions for Depo Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment”.

Sharona Eliahu Chai, a lawyer for the Association of Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI), said: “Findings from investigations into the use of Depo Provera are extremely worrisome, raising concerns of harmful health policies with racist implications in violation of medical ethics. The Ministry of Health’s director-general was right to act quickly and put forth new guidelines.”

@Trulywonderful shocked to see you justify and downplay women being coerced, manipulated and forced into being injected with contraceptives in some instances for years.
Perhaps you should read the rest of the post, do you also justify and downplay Yemeni babies and children being removed from their parents? Decades later, some families still have no idea what happened to their child.

OK you don't want to discuss Starmer and the current LP then. That's fine.

Also this

I believe the Iraqi Jewish community is one of the biggest single communities in Israel. There were refugees after being ethnically cleansed from their own country. Before they came to Israel they were subject to torture, rapes and murder. Most fled Iraq with nothing, they were not allowed to leave with their own property.

Also calling Ashkenazi Israelis European is nasty in so many ways. Yes that is where they came from originally but as most are world war 2 refugees calling them or their decendants European to score points is plain nasty. Most had no place else safe to go. It isn't like they chose for the Holocaust to happen or to retire to Israel etc. Israel is there home as much as anyone else's that live on the land. Yes I include Arabs too.

I was going to but first had to address you laps of judgement in the comment about his wife and children

Then the conversation going on pulled me into another direction

I can come back later and talk about Starmer once things settle here or else pop onto the Piers Morgan and Cobyn interview thread a page or so back someone asked me about him on it. That will give you my general thoughts on voting for him anyway. The conflict bit we are supposed to be talking about here looks like it will have to wait until later plus I am out in a bit

Are you not horrified by that article?
I knew nothing about it and I am. Giving women contraceptives without their knowledge or consent is a known way to control certain populations.

The violence against Jews in Iraq is also the subject of long international and internal Israeli enquiries about whether the attacks were instigated or led by Iraqi zionist movements or Mossad in an effort to move more Jewish communities to Israel. This has not been concluded but widely known to be a possibility. These claims have been made by Iraqi Jews as well as CIA agents, amongst others.

I was just preempting what I thought you were likely to say about the LPs antisemitism with a few facts to get us started.

I'm not sure saying his family are Jewish is particularly controversial but it does seem relevant to any discussion about his views/position on Jewish topics.

Anyway, I'll wait for you to come back to it. Looking forward to reading your thoughts.

I am not justifying anything I am saying that forced Sterilisation stories were and are not the truth. This is a temporary contraceptive injection. It grates me that people talk about it in this way because women around the world need to feel safe about having these injections. Sometimes it is a good answer for their own health needs and families economic welfare. Properganda or articles saying it is Sterilisation is very dangerous to women's health.

@Trulywonderful

Sometimes it is a good answer for their own health needs and families economic welfare.

In the case of the women above, they didn't want to take it and were forced. It wasn't a good idea for those women's health or economic welfare, was it?

“They [medical staff] told us they are inoculations. We took it every three months. We said we didn’t want to.” It is alleged that some of the women were forced or coerced to take the drug while in transit camps in Ethiopia.

It lasts for 3 months and is extremely effective. The women were told it was an inoculation and had repeat injections administered.

Women should have a basic right to bodily autonomy, including whether or not to take contraceptives.

The fact it was only noticed when the birth rate for that group dropped without explanation should be raising flags that this wasn't a choice of those women.

Well. I'm pretty horrified and speechless.

Looking forward to reading your thoughts.

Of course you will most people do, I am truly wonderful after all