What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

We were talking about the long term problem the very left has with Israel at that point in the conversation. This problem pre dates the current conflict by many years. The very left had issues when we were looking at one of the smallest conflicts in the world. Compared to places like Syria were Assad killed 4700 Palestinian women and children after torturing and raping them in just less than a month Israel has been a tiny conflict up until now.

Yes I can't quite believe that the Nakba is called a propaganda term when we still have Israeli ministers referring to it in a cruel way when talking about what is happening in Gaza right now

This is so dismissive. And actually quite offensive on lots of levels. The Israeli government demand international support for their actions. The horrific events of October 7th were/are headline news. It is not possible to have all that attention on these events then write of the Gazan death toll as a "tiny conflict".

Just one example @cauliflowerwaterfall

Ariel Kallner, Israeli politician of the Likud Party: “Now there is only one goal: Nakba (expulsion of the Palestinians). A Nakba in Gaza that will dwarf the Nakba of 1948”.

well you've withdrawn on the JC point then - that's good. As for what any followers of anyone might say, those comments are to be judged for themselves. And any genuine anti semitism condemned of course. I am not on general social media than goodness, but quite often see JC quoted but not actually quoted on here as some sort of instant point win.

Don't tag me please

Plus as on other threads where people keep telling you the same thing, learn to read people's posts rather than just making derogatory comments

Oh for goodness sake behave! She's pointing out a VERY well known antisemitic trope which people on the far left have both currently and historically used to bait Jews with. It's been rampant across the far left and it's a trope that feeds directly into both far left and far right conspiracy theories about wealthy shadowy globalists trying to control the world. So to suggest her post, highlighting this aspect of antisemitism on the left, is antisemitism itself is nothing more than puerile nonsense.

@OuiOuiKitty yes definitely agree.
To think there are people saying the Palestinians should essentially just get over their bloody history because 'sh*t happens' whilst minimising and ignoring the ongoing oppression they still face

I don't get annoyed by much these days as I feel i have just about heard it all but this really annoyed me

I didn't tag you. I quoted you. Write minimising posts and expect to have them quoted.

I'm not getting into a fight with you, just pointing out your minimisation of quite a horrific humanitarian crisis

I think it’s very hard to try and counter when people are so certain in their view of history and evidence won’t change their minds, so the only thing I need to say is that “Nakba” is not comparable to the Holocaust in any way, shape or form. Please do not use the Holocaust as a metaphor.

Nakba was quite obviously terrible for those who suffered through it. 700 000 people forcibly displaced. But what about the Arab Jews who were forcibly displaced around the same time? Why won't anyone talk about them? People always ignore me whenever I bring it up and I don't really understand why. It feels like you should be able to have empathy for both groups and not only focus on the suffering of one of those people. Bearing in mind the displacement of Arab Jews led to a lot of them moving to Israel.

@Trulywonderful you can't tell people not to tag you on a public forum debate.

I can't see anything derogatory in the PPs response.

They were disputing your posts. That is allowed.

When people bring up racial stereotypes as an "explanation" for a behaviour it spreads them.

I can't even write a theoretical example because I can't bring myself to type it. But saying "The left believe all Jews are....." is pretty disgusting.

At the very best it's a smear, at the worst its amplifying the racist tropes she claims to be against.

I haven't withdrawn on anything because I have not said what you claimed I did. Not on here or on any other thread

I said the poster was obviously a Jez fan because they used standard Jez fan language etc They are normally pretty Jew hating by anyone's standards. Just look at the social media posts they make. Sick sick people.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth or twist what I say. People can read my posts and see what I have said.

A PP posted the IHRA definition of antisemitism, but I'm guessing several posters on here can't be bothered reading it, probably because essentially you really don't give a fuck about antisemitism. So here's something a bit more basic for you. The definition of antisemitism in Oxford English Dictionary:

Characterized by prejudice, hostility, or discrimination towards Jewish people on religious, cultural, or ethnic grounds; anti-Jewish.

There's a contingent of posters who have spent months now littering so many of these threads displaying extreme hostility towards both Jewish posters and Jews in general. Perhaps do a bit of soul searching and really question your apparent antiracism credentials. You don't get to hide behind your (questionable) socialism to absolve you from this.

And if your antagonism, goading and hate is so bloody obvious to active posters on here, then you can be sure as hell there's as many lurkers seeing it too. The constant stream of folk telling Jews they're wrong and actually there is no antisemitism, we're making it up, demands to see evidence, or that you're sick of hearing about antisemitism, ask yourself - is there any other minority ethnic group you would speak to like this? Because to me, the folk doing this (often self-declared lefties) are showing prejudice, hostility and discrimination towards Jewish people.

You aren't denying that Nakba happened though, you are just saying that it was no big deal. So we are talking about the same history, you are just saying that you think it shouldn't be a big deal to Palestinians because everyone was doing it. I don't really understand why you would think that you have the right to tell people they need to just 'get over it' because to you it was no big deal. You don't get to decide for other people how big a deal ethnic cleansing is, it isn't your place to tell people how to feel about their history.

Plus as on other threads where people keep telling you the same thing, learn to read people's posts rather than just making derogatory comments

Adam is also an expert at twisting posters' words.

This is nonsense, it is not in itself racist to describe an antisemitic trope favoured by a particular group of people when discussing racism. Neither is generalising the group the trope comes from. The nature of debate means that we don’t have enough time to name every single person on the left and their views on Israel/Palestine and Jews individually, so we name broad themes. This is not a tiny % of people. Andrew Murray, one of Corbyn’s closest advisers, said that Corbyn can’t empathise with Jews because he can only empathise with the poor. Who needs enemies, eh.

@OuiOuiKitty
There is an excellent post by @YetAnotherSpartacus above explaining why the Nakba has little place in this discussion.
I'll copy the relevant sections:
"Israel also didn’t start the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. It’s anachronistic to even think they might have. The odds of them winning were very small, they were the underdog. Israel accepted the offer by the UN (even though it was for less land per person than Palestine). Palestine rejected the deal, the Arab League (including Palestine) started an invasion, then they lost the war that they started, and the victor exacted a price, that is the way all wars go. “Nakba” is a propaganda term for the same thing that happens in every war over land, someone wins it and someone loses it. Serbia is not happy with how much land they ended up with after losing the war, there are countless other examples. To the victor go the spoils, so don’t start wars is the lesson there.

After that same war, Jordan annexed part of Palestine, which people have either conveniently forgotten or miraculously recovered from.

To put it in perspective, 60 million people worldwide were displaced in the 40s - you hear very few requests for land returns from elsewhere, most refugees built lives in their new homes and the next few generations born there consider themselves home. The Palestinian Authorities chose to spend the next 70-odd years in a state of perpetual war, they chose to reject every peace deal, when they could have chosen the same option as all other people displaced at the same time, they could have focused on building Palestine into a functioning state."

Oh please stop now
This is ridiculous and actually just bullying. I'd say people are expert at twisting my words.

As I keep saying, I only started posting to try to learn more to counter my children's education from TikTok. But this constant "you are pro hamas, you are minimising October the 7th, you are anti semitic, you are a fan of Jez" is making me less supportive of Israel not more. Because there are only insults for anyone who doesn't wholeheartedly support the Israeli government approach.

I don't wish to have to rake up who said what where but just stop following me round making accusations.

And if your antagonism, goading and hate is so bloody obvious to active posters on here, then you can be sure as hell there's as many lurkers seeing it too. The constant stream of folk telling Jews they're wrong and actually there is no antisemitism, we're making it up, demands to see evidence, or that you're sick of hearing about antisemitism, ask yourself - is there any other minority ethnic group you would speak to like this? Because to me, the folk doing this (often self-declared lefties) are showing prejudice, hostility and discrimination towards Jewish people.

This

There is an excellent post by @YetAnotherSpartacus above explaining why the Nakba has little place in this discussion.

It wasn't me! I was just quoting it :)

I replied to 1 (one) of your posts.

I have not accused you of any of those things, though it is interesting to note that you are apparently accused of them so often, so I will bear that in mind in future.

Nakba has little space in this discussion because it's an inconvenient truth that needs to be hushed, at the very best, minimised, at the worst, denied.

You are minimising the pain of Palestinians and the murder, destruction and ethnic Cleansing of the people and their land to fit your own narrative, and indulge in whataboutery and shrugging - it happens, get over it - but scream anti semitism if anyone questions Israels history.