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Conflict in the Middle East

“Pause” ends tomorrow. Anyone else filled with dread ?

466 replies

Desertrose2023 · 27/11/2023 15:28

Just that really. I’ve felt such relief the past couple of days that my phone won’t be filled with a constant stream of murdered Palestinian kids and wailing parents. That all ends tomorrow and I have such a sense of foreboding even though I’m safe and comfortable thousands of miles away. I can’t begin to imagine the dread the Palestinians in Gaza must be feeling tonight knowing their genocide resumes tomorrow. When will it end 😞

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ohforheavenssakedearcomeonnow · 03/12/2023 23:58

I think Israel will be a lot safer once their campaign to ensure their borders are safe from Hamas incursion. They have the firepower and defences to repel bordering nations too but it is terribly necessary to ensure that border with Gaza was safe. They know what they are doing a lot better than the posters on here who consider otherwise that is I mean the best military and strategic minds on the planet - USA and Israel.

watcherintherye · 04/12/2023 00:23

Israel need to finish this organisation: (Hamas)

How ironic, then, that Israel’s continued destruction of Gaza and its citizens will probably end up being the biggest recruitment drive ever.
Oh and, by the way, Israel were fine and dandy cosying up to and bolstering Hamas when it suited them to play divide and rule with Hamas in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. That went well….

Chaitales · 04/12/2023 00:29

watcherintherye · 04/12/2023 00:23

Israel need to finish this organisation: (Hamas)

How ironic, then, that Israel’s continued destruction of Gaza and its citizens will probably end up being the biggest recruitment drive ever.
Oh and, by the way, Israel were fine and dandy cosying up to and bolstering Hamas when it suited them to play divide and rule with Hamas in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. That went well….

I dont disagree with you, but would like to very gently point out

How ironic, then, that Israel’s continued destruction of Gaza and its citizens will probably end up being the biggest recruitment drive ever.

Let's not fall into Israel supporters playbook about Palestinians = Hamas by saying that this war will lead more innocent civilian Palestinians to support Hamas, a proscribed terrorist org. I don't think it does Palestinians any favours by insinuating in any way that they will end up becoming Hamas. Let's keep the two separate.

Parkingt111 · 04/12/2023 08:16

@watcherintherye
I read this in the BBC today and I thought it was quite interesting to see America finally saying what alot of other people have been saying for quite awhile.

But there is some concern, particularly in some very strong comments from US Defence Secretary Lloyd Austen, suggesting that Israel could achieve a tactical victory but a strategic defeat, if they continue to kill civilians at the rate that they have previously. That suggestion – that they could push people into the arms and mindset of Israeli enemies - is very powerful coming from Israel’s ally.

Wale90 · 04/12/2023 12:50

I made no suggestion that Hamas were not violent, I'm sure there are many more examples like you have linked to. I also think there would be similar examples in most cases of occupation and their overall journey to liberation. Equally we don't need to look far to find footage of IDF soldiers beating Orthodox Jews protesting, shooting children and beating elderly Palestinian people.

I'm really interested in the way which Hamas are (rightly) declared terrorist organisation but we don't apply the same language to the state of Israel. Is it because we assume states act morally? Or that the west still has a deep level of suspicion against Arab countries so we're willing to turn a blind eye to violence we would not allow elsewhere... Im very aware their are violent conflicts throughout the world, please don't cite them as my ignorance for focusing specifically on this situation.

I just can't fathom how a military with a very clear objective have managed to destroy almost all infrastructure needed for survival... As well as targeting schools, mosques, refugee camps etc with some of the most high tech prescion weapons and are no closer to achieving their objectives...unless that objective also includes ethnic cleansing.

For context definitions of terrorism and ethnic cleansing

the use or threat of one or more of the actions listed below, and where they are designed to influence the government, or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public. The use or threat must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.

The specific actions included are:

serious violence against a person;
serious damage to property;
endangering a person's life (other than that of the person committing the action);
creating a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public;

And ethnic cleansing

“… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”

Wale90 · 04/12/2023 12:53

Wale90 · 04/12/2023 12:50

I made no suggestion that Hamas were not violent, I'm sure there are many more examples like you have linked to. I also think there would be similar examples in most cases of occupation and their overall journey to liberation. Equally we don't need to look far to find footage of IDF soldiers beating Orthodox Jews protesting, shooting children and beating elderly Palestinian people.

I'm really interested in the way which Hamas are (rightly) declared terrorist organisation but we don't apply the same language to the state of Israel. Is it because we assume states act morally? Or that the west still has a deep level of suspicion against Arab countries so we're willing to turn a blind eye to violence we would not allow elsewhere... Im very aware their are violent conflicts throughout the world, please don't cite them as my ignorance for focusing specifically on this situation.

I just can't fathom how a military with a very clear objective have managed to destroy almost all infrastructure needed for survival... As well as targeting schools, mosques, refugee camps etc with some of the most high tech prescion weapons and are no closer to achieving their objectives...unless that objective also includes ethnic cleansing.

For context definitions of terrorism and ethnic cleansing

the use or threat of one or more of the actions listed below, and where they are designed to influence the government, or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public. The use or threat must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.

The specific actions included are:

serious violence against a person;
serious damage to property;
endangering a person's life (other than that of the person committing the action);
creating a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public;

And ethnic cleansing

“… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”

Sorry @Stomacharmeleon i didn't reply correctly in my first reply

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 14:56

@Parkingt111 perhaps I am a bit cynical but when the most powerful nation in the world says something but in practical terms does the exact opposite you have to think about their agenda

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 15:08

@Chaitales I have written and rewritten this a few times so I am sorry for the delay.
I have been over lots of scenarios in my head for what Israel should or could do but I honestly think it has no choice but to get rid of Hamas in its entirety.

Whether I would go about it the same way is another thing. I have thought about widening the buffer and essentially cutting off the Gazan's... allowing the supportive Arab countries to release aid and sort out rebuilding infrastructure. Let them govern themselves in every way.

That doesn't solve the Hamas problem.

I have thought about Mossad going after the 'big three' and dismantling Hamas that way. Getting the UN to restrict or redirect funding through a third party. Make Hamas surplus to requirements.

I am not sure in the short term that would solve the Hamas problem.

There are elements of the government I dislike. I am not right wing. Dislike the settler situation and think Netanyahu will go. I would like the remaining hostages home

I am not sure anything with solve the Hamas problem.

I feel like it's a necessary evil. I get the upset and reaction but I have yet to read a concrete solution on here that solves this issue and diplomacy and mediation will only take us so far.

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 15:13

@Wale90 I disagree with a lot of what you have said. Picking one thing Israel left a complete infrastructure when it withdrew from Gaza. It was destroyed years ago.

What do you think Hamas wants out of this? If you think they are just out to liberate. Liberate who from where? For what ends?

Wale90 · 04/12/2023 16:36

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 15:13

@Wale90 I disagree with a lot of what you have said. Picking one thing Israel left a complete infrastructure when it withdrew from Gaza. It was destroyed years ago.

What do you think Hamas wants out of this? If you think they are just out to liberate. Liberate who from where? For what ends?

Prior to the most recent Israeli assault follow Oct 7th there was a fully functioning medical system, education system including universities, road infrastructure, water tanks, solar panels (the last two desperately necessary to offset the Israeli control of the supply into Gaza) refugee camps etc... These have all been targeted and desemated in the last 50 + days... All under the guide of eradicating Hamas but ultimately eradicating the very infrastructure needed to survive. With the North now uninhabitable and ground invasion in the Mid section and bombing in the South I wander how this will end. Hamas still at large but the Palestinians in the desert?

The murder of the Palestinian people, 20'000+ in 50 &days is not a necessary evil despite what Nir Bakat says, it's genocide.

Israel’s economy minister, Nir Barkat, told ABC News that hostages and civilian casualties will be secondary to destroying Hamas, “even if takes a year”.

Even if we set aside Gaza the increase in violence and internationally recognised system at Apartheid in the West Bank where there is no Hamas becomes even more problematic because what is the goal there? Military oppression and violence to coerce control? It doesn't look good for the 'only democracy in the middle east'

But, to answer, I want the total liberation of the Palestinian people, the end of Apartheid in the west bank, the removal of control of what the people of Gaza have access to, the release of all hostages (Israeli and Palestinian), an internationally recognised land for the Palestinians (likely to be close to 67 boarders but I understand this has to be handled VERY carefully because I staunchly believe all civilians should be protected). The removal of Hamas and Netanyahu. Call me fanciful but I don't think this should be controversial...its the bare minimum.

I do not claim at any point that this is easily achieved, maybe even impossible but it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask for.

Israeli military has 'green light' to move into Gaza, official says

Updates on the Israel-Gaza conflict from Oct. 23, 2023.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-live-updates/israeli-military-has-green-light-to-move-into-gaza-official-says-104133249?id=104049894

MercanDede · 04/12/2023 17:59

Opinion piece on the AI that is reportedly generating the targets for IDF. Perhaps this is more about how we are trusting AI too much….

Fact or fiction? Israeli maps and AI do not save Palestinian lives
Israel’s narrative of ‘evacuation warnings’ and ‘precision strikes’ serves as a cover for its AI-assisted genocide in Gaza.

Marc Owen Jones
Dr Marc Owen Jones is Assistant Professor of Middle East Studies and Digital Humanities at Hamad bin Khalifa University.
Published On 4 Dec 2023
4 Dec 2023

An Israeli bombardment of Gaza is seen in this picture taken from southern Israel on December 2, 2023 [Jack Guez/AFP]
On December 2, the Israeli army’s Arabic-language spokesperson Avichay Adraee posted a map of Gaza, broken up into a grid of numbered blocks with instructions that Palestinians living in certain areas evacuate to Rafah. Leaflets containing a QR code linking to the map on the Israeli army’s website were also dropped over Gaza.

This move came as Israeli fighter jets bombarded the south of the Strip – previously designated as a “safe zone” – killing hundreds of Palestinians in 24 hours. The Israeli army proudly announced that it had hit “400 targets”.

Meanwhile, media reports revealed that the Israeli army’s ability to intensify what it calls “precision” air strikes has been boosted by an artificial intelligence (AI) tool that generates “targets”.

The maps, the leaflets, the tweets, the claims of “precision” military technology, all feed into the narrative that Israel’s “most moral army” is taking care to protect civilians in Gaza. But all these are no more than a propaganda ploy to cover up what really is happening on the ground – an AI-assisted genocide.

A game of maps
Over the past two months of brutal war, Israel has constantly resorted to the use of “evacuation” maps and warnings issued on social media, calling on Palestinians to flee certain areas of Gaza.

Yet the mounting death toll – nearly 16,000 people and thousands more missing and likely dead – offers no evidence that Israel is in fact concerned about the wellbeing of Palestinian civilians.

What it is concerned is about the growing condemnations abroad of what legal experts are calling genocide and increasing pressure from the United States.

Just a few days ago, US Secretary of State Antony Blinken warned Israel it has weeks, and not months, to finish its campaign in Gaza. His boss, President Joe Biden, is acutely aware of the growing domestic discontent with how he is handling the war, which could cost him votes in next year’s presidential election.

This “evacuation messaging” the Israeli army has been undertaking is more directed at Western audiences, seeking to assuage their fears about the civilian death toll, than the Palestinians in Gaza. The fact that it is delivered mostly on social media platforms indicates the intended audience is not the people in the Strip.

The Israeli army has not only cut off electricity to Gaza but also targeted and damaged its already temperamental mobile network, thus leaving most of the people there with almost no access to the internet.

The leaflets that were dropped over the weekend are also not worth the paper they were printed on. The QR code on them is of use only if there is a working phone with a charged battery and internet access.

Discrepancies of different maps being shared by Israeli officials have also resulted in additional confusion. Areas marked for targeting in orange did not even correspond with the numbers of blocks officials were telling people to evacuate from.

Consequently, the overall impact of the maps has been to create “fear, panic and confusion”, as Melanie Ward, CEO of Medical Aid for Palestinians, explained in a tweet.

Furthermore, the detailed mapping and dissection of Gaza are designed to create the illusion of precision and precaution, but the evacuation orders behind them demonstrate the opposite.

Gaza is 360 square kilometres and has a population of 2.3 million. The average size of each of the 620 blocks on the map is 0.58 square kilometres, which means approximately 3,700 residents per block.

Asking dozens of blocks equating to tens of thousands of people to move is hardly “precision”. It is mass displacement masquerading as parsimonious precaution.

Israel’s digital killing machine
Apart from using digital maps and QR codes to try and prove to its allies that its army is not reckless, Israel is also boasting about its “precision” military technologies.

Among them is an AI weapons system called “Habsora” (“The Gospel”) which can quickly and automatically identify targets, much faster than older methods.

If in previous bombing campaigns, the Israeli army would manually select 50 targets per day, today the new system provides 100.

According to one source quoted by the +972 magazine, this weapon has turned the Israeli army into a “mass assassination factory”, focusing more on the “quantity and not quality”.

The magazine reports that the Israeli soldiers using the AI targeting system are aware of the number of civilians they will kill; it is displayed in the category “collateral damage” in the target file.

The Israeli army has categorised thresholds of civilian deaths, ranging from five to the hundreds. The directive “collateral damage five”, for example, means the Israeli soldiers are authorised to kill a target that will also kill 5 civilians.

On the higher end, “the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander”, +972 magazine reports.

Given that Israel considers all 30,000 Hamas members in Gaza as potential targets, this means that “wiping out” the movement would entail a massive civilian death toll. If we use the lowest “collateral damage five”, the most conservative estimate amounts to 150,000 civilians.

Of course, as Hamas leaders that are killed are inevitably replaced, hundreds more Palestinians will be murdered as the AI system generates more new targets. Since Hamas cannot be defeated militarily, the only logical outcome of this will be the perpetual murder or removal of everyone in Gaza.

Another disturbing element of AI is that it reproduces biases it has been trained on. Historically, Israel has shown little regard for civilian life in its bombing. One has to wonder to what extent the secretive AI has learned to associate any Palestinian with “Hamas terrorist” based on past Israeli army behaviour. This might explain why it is able to generate so many new “targets” for bombing.

The propaganda of precision
Israel likes to boast about its morality and high-tech, precision strike capabilities, ironically as a means of defending itself against claims of indiscriminately attacking civilians and allegations of war crimes.

This characterisation of the Israeli army’s technological sophistication is also used by the US to help justify its support for Israel. Blinken, for example, has stated that “Israel has … one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world. It is capable of neutralising the threat posed by Hamas while minimising harm to innocent men, women and children.”

But the more the US and Israel promote the narrative of its technological prowess, the more it gives an element of legal jeopardy. As international law professor Michael Schmitt argues, “the greater the precision capabilities of an attacker, the more compelling the characterisation of an attack striking civilians or civilian objects as reckless”.

In other words, a high-tech army has more of an obligation to try and “prove” that they are not being reckless. The more Israel and the US boast of Israel’s technical prowess, the more people question why so many civilians are being killed.

The only answer is that Israel has precision weapons, but is still targeting people indiscriminately. Thus, sophisticated technology, rather than serving its ostensible purpose of precision and precaution, is instead weaponised as a tool of mass killing and destruction. In other words, what we are seeing in Gaza is an AI-assisted genocide.

The views expressed in this article are the author’s own and do not necessarily reflect Al Jazeera’s editorial stance or my opinion either.

Parkingt111 · 04/12/2023 19:04

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 14:56

@Parkingt111 perhaps I am a bit cynical but when the most powerful nation in the world says something but in practical terms does the exact opposite you have to think about their agenda

I told you my views on the US from the start.
They will go with whatever is in their best interests and not necessarily with what is 'correct'
I suppose the same can be said for most countries but the US have a major role in this war so more in the limelight

Parkingt111 · 04/12/2023 19:33

Internet and tel blackout again in Gaza Whilst the strikes continue
It will be difficult to reach out to the injured or call ambulances
QR code system won't work either but saying that it hasn't seemed to have made much difference anyway

ohforheavenssakedearcomeonnow · 04/12/2023 20:23

iMy recipe for a ceasefire otherwise all this is going to continue for a year:

1.)F YOU WANT A Ceasefire - Just release all the hostages and stop killing them.
2.)Apologise to ISRAEL AND MAKE A PEACE TREATY.
3.)STOP SAYING we want to destroy Israel

Easy!

Wale90 · 04/12/2023 20:28

ohforheavenssakedearcomeonnow · 04/12/2023 20:23

iMy recipe for a ceasefire otherwise all this is going to continue for a year:

1.)F YOU WANT A Ceasefire - Just release all the hostages and stop killing them.
2.)Apologise to ISRAEL AND MAKE A PEACE TREATY.
3.)STOP SAYING we want to destroy Israel

Easy!

Apologise to Israel 🤣

Chaitales · 04/12/2023 21:01

ohforheavenssakedearcomeonnow · 04/12/2023 20:23

iMy recipe for a ceasefire otherwise all this is going to continue for a year:

1.)F YOU WANT A Ceasefire - Just release all the hostages and stop killing them.
2.)Apologise to ISRAEL AND MAKE A PEACE TREATY.
3.)STOP SAYING we want to destroy Israel

Easy!

How about starting with asking Israel to apologise for just ONE thing - lets be easy on them. One thing - not 75 years of occupation and ongoing terror, murder, imprisonment and assault, but one thing

The 1948 Nakba

The foundational events of the Nakba took place during and shortly after the 1948 Palestine war, including 78% of Mandatory Palestine being declared as Israel, the expulsion and flight of 700,000 Palestinians, the related depopulation and destruction of over 500 Palestinian villages by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army[3] and subsequent geographical erasure, the denial of the Palestinian right of return, the creation of permanent Palestinian refugees, and the "shattering of Palestinian society".

1948 Palestine war - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war

Chaitales · 04/12/2023 21:04

Wale90 · 04/12/2023 20:28

Apologise to Israel 🤣

Kill our people
Take our land
Imprison the rest
Kill whenever we feel like it
Torture whoever we want
You kill back
Now you say sorry
STAMP MY FEET SAY SORRY NOW

Wale90 · 04/12/2023 21:13

Chaitales · 04/12/2023 21:04

Kill our people
Take our land
Imprison the rest
Kill whenever we feel like it
Torture whoever we want
You kill back
Now you say sorry
STAMP MY FEET SAY SORRY NOW

It would be laughable if not for the tragedy in Israel wake.

This is their legacy, when the penny drops and the awakening happens as to what decades of Zionist nationalist propaganda has done to generations it'll be Israel who is remembered for inflicting a deadly assault on children, journalists, mothers, fathers, medics... For land.

Chaitales · 04/12/2023 21:14

While we are at apologies, can we ask Britain to apologise for

  • Amritsar massacre (we regret it, but no apologies)
  • Mau Mau - King Charles has spoken of Britain's “abhorrent and unjustifiable acts of violence” committed against Kenyans during their fight for independence, but stopped short of an apology despite human rights groups demanding on
  • UK Slave trade and reparations - outright rejected
  • Scores more but cba right now
paladium · 04/12/2023 21:21

@Chaitales Side note, I’m curious to know the rationale behind refusing to apologise for the bad stuff we did. Would it implicate us financially for compensation, or is it more about saving face?

Toothyfruity · 04/12/2023 21:26

paladium · 04/12/2023 21:21

@Chaitales Side note, I’m curious to know the rationale behind refusing to apologise for the bad stuff we did. Would it implicate us financially for compensation, or is it more about saving face?

Saving face I think. I'm not British though. But a few months ago legislation was enacted to stop any British soldier ever being charged with the murders of civilians in Northern Ireland. So even when it comes to British citizens (not that the Catholics/nationalists would identify as such and it was exclusively Catholics including children who the soldiers murdered), it gives an insight into the mentality that it's OK to murder when the killer is a British soldier and the victim is an Irish Catholic.

Chaitales · 04/12/2023 21:27

paladium · 04/12/2023 21:21

@Chaitales Side note, I’m curious to know the rationale behind refusing to apologise for the bad stuff we did. Would it implicate us financially for compensation, or is it more about saving face?

I'm not entirely sure - will have to read up on it.

Also, some other apologies due:

  • Boer War concentration caps
  • the Bengal famine
  • Irish potato famine
Wale90 · 04/12/2023 21:41

paladium · 04/12/2023 21:21

@Chaitales Side note, I’m curious to know the rationale behind refusing to apologise for the bad stuff we did. Would it implicate us financially for compensation, or is it more about saving face?

I expect a combination of upholding western white images of righteousness and morality, coupled with our main institutes that would be responsible, crown, military, police, government continuing to benefit from a history of colonialism so wanting to avoid any criticism/upsetting the apple cart.