Holy Land, next Europe and America are next

[WereNext]

According to the Israeli PM. Do you believe this? And if you do, what's your background in geopolitics, level of education and religious belief. Does Hamas = Isis? Or are Hamas the equivalent of the mafia?

As much as I abhor the bombing in Gaza, is this realistic, that we protest and hope that we are not next?

And is the deterioration of western, Christian values a result of our vulnerabilities? Israel attacked, and Russia and China muscling us up on that and have taken their chances because we, the west, ARE weak. ??

😫

And you are saying Hamas want Israel to continue stealing its land?

It's not Hamas's land, it's the land of the Palestinian people. It's not like they've had recent elections.

Are you saying they are not an Islamic Death Cult? They have said it themselves often enough and clearly reiterated it after 7th October.

The idea that it is possible to negotiate with people like this would be funny if it wasn’t so damned depressing. Meanwhile Jihadi attacks continue in a number of countries and particularly across Africa and all vicious and inhumane.

Hamas does not give a shit about Gaza, Palestine, Gazans or Palestinians per se.
Hamas merely uses Gaza and Israel justifications for its main aim of whatever strain of Islam it dreams of inflicting on the world. A Jew free world and any other inconvenience to the vision of Hamas world.
And Gazans were and are vulnerable enough to accept Hamas as it government. I dare say that the blossoming of Saudi- Israeli relations would have left Hamas vulnerable amongst young Gazans eventually. Not perhaps making them "Israel friendly" , but recognising that Hamas is not in any way there to enable emancipation.
Hamas needs Israel to bomb Gazans. If Israel is in any way seen as an ally with another Muslim Middle Eastern nation, the brainwashing will be harder to accomplish. And to enable Hamas's vision , it needs young men eager to sacrifice life as a viable option to living tenuously under manners due to both Hamas dictatorship and Israeli boundaries.
So peace can never be an option for Hamas. "Flux" is it's favoured paradigm .
The Palestinian cause attracts so many users and greasy polers full past their intelligence worldwide Hamas is but one.Clever, brutal, not wound too tight and capable of acting out as much hate for its own in order to destroy their real target.
The last part is their Achilles heel.
Gotta love one's own more than one hates one's enemy. Or else, what you fighting for?

I am sure a lot on here do not have a clue about the history of Palestine. That a lot think that the creation of Israel was completely bloodless or that the Zionists used only lobbying and "buying" land. For all those who do not know this side of the story, know that Jewish terrorists waged a ferocious terror campaign against both the British and Palestinians in their quest for a Jewish state.

"The main terrorist groups were Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military Organisation) - ultimately led by future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin - and an even more militant organisation, Lohamey Heruth Israel (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel) or LHI.

The British called LHI the Stern Gang after its leader, Abraham Stern, who was killed in a clash with the Palestine Police in 1942. In November 1944, LHI assassinated the British Minister for the Middle East, Lord Moyne."
National Army Museum (UK)

JEWISH-ZIONIST TERRORISM AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF ISRAEL (US Department of Justice)
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/jewish-zionist-terrorism-and-establishment-israel

Some headlines from British Newspapers about the Jewish terrorists:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy5ZoL9sxFe/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

I myself wasn't very aware of that until I read a book Lords of the Desert: Britain's Struggle with America to Dominate the Middle East by James Barr.

I know the history.

I also know that where democracy, liberalism and tolerance thrive so do Jews.

We're not weak, there's just no appetite to fight other people's wars. I have no time for Netanyahu and his nonsense.

Definitely not in Israel.

My thoughts too.

The Arab population who live in Israel and peacefully coexist would disagree. As would the gay population.

@feralunderclass Thank you for your insight; very interesting.

I think you are one of the very few on Mumsnet who has first hand experience of life there. How was it? Did you feel free to do your work? Was it easy to obtain a visa? What about the exit interview at the airport?

I guess you are not aware of the extensive legal infrastructure in Israel that inherently makes Palestinian citizens of Israel unequal to Jewish citizens. For example, the Law of Return allows Jews from anywhere around the world to come and get automatic citizenship, while family members of Palestinian citizens of Israel are actively denied that right. The Citizenship and Entry Into Israel Law basically bans family unification between citizens of Israel and people in the occupied territories. The Admissions Committees Law enables housing segregation. These are a few examples.

As for the rights of LGBTQ communities, a quick glance at the track record of the current far-right government reveals a very hard-line, homophobic stance. Have a look at Bezalel Smotrich's Wikipedia page for his views and record on this. Enough with the pinkwashing propaganda. Seriously.

https://queercinemaforpalestine.org

https://decolonizepalestine.com/rainbow-washing/pinkwashing/

"This messaging has been deemed ‘pinkwashing’ by queer pro-Palestinian activists; widely in use since at least 2010 by groups such as Queers Undermining Israeli Terrorism (QUIT) as a twist on “greenwashing”, where companies claim to be eco-friendly in order to make a profit. In the case of Israel, pinkwashing is done to salvage its abysmal global reputation of being a colonial aggressor, through exploiting and even encouraging anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia to present itself as a comparatively modern cosmopolitan haven- and boost its tourism revenue in the process."

But compared to the surrounding countries Israel is a much safer place to be gay.

Sure. Do Israel's "precision" bombs spare gay people?

No, obviously, and I never said they did. 🤨

All the gay people Israel are bombing in Gaza have either already been dealt with by Hamas (ie pushed off a rooftop) or have covered up the fact they are gay in fear for their life.

Roughly 20% of the population in Israel is Arab and they enjoy equal rights under the law. How many Jewish people were living openly and safely in Gaza prior to October 7?

@Louloulouenna What you've said about the 20% of Palestinian citizens of Israel is simply not true. There is extensive legal infrastructure in Israel that inherently makes Palestinian citizens of Israel unequal to Jewish citizens. For example, the Law of Return allows Jews from anywhere around the world to come and get automatic citizenship, while family members of Palestinian citizens of Israel are actively denied that right. The Citizenship and Entry Into Israel Law basically bans family unification between citizens of Israel and people in the occupied territories. The Admissions Committees Law enables housing segregation. These are just a few examples.

No need to try to paint Israel as a haven for gay people in the middle east just to gloss over the fact that it's an apartheid state.

I went for the first time more than 20 years ago and last time this year. I'm not allowed to enter at Ben Gurion airport, which is very common for anyone who has an interest in human rights or who has activity on their phone that might suggest they are "pro Palestine". (And I must add that I am not in any way publicly known for speaking out in the spotlight).
One queue for Israelis, one for foreigners and one for Palestinians. Latter queue is miles long, even though bags go through multiple scanning machines their bags are all opened and stuff all taken out, which obviously takes ages. Last time I arrived in the 'sorting centre' (which is a type of checking/scrutinising place before you go to the visa place) I saw a Palestinian woman and her young daughter being checked. The security man opened her suitcase and was taking stuff out. He opened a box of kitchen knives and took a knife out, as if to examine it and then very suddenly pulled it up and mock 'stabbed' the young girl, who started screaming and crying. The security guards all just started laughing and calling her a baby 😡.
Honestly the oppression was shocking, and nothing has changed. It's so incredibly sad that young children are very aware that they have no right to self determine, and are very accepting that as Palestinians they are very much second class 'vermin'. Even the rigorous checkpoints feel so exhausting and even as a foreigner I had a lot of constant anxiety about the possibility of being arrested, so I can't imagine how it must feel to be born into that and to live your whole life in those conditions. Even Israelis who aren't saying the 'right' thing are surveilled and scrutinised. That's why I get so triggered when I hear posters on here calling other Jewish posters "antisemites" or "nuts" if they speak against the 'allowed' rhetoric. Even to have speech suppressed feels so oppressive.

Sorry, I forgot that were not allowed to say anything remotely positive about anything about Israel. It is thr worst place in the world in every single metric and anyone who disagrees supports genocide, is that about the gist of it?

I said Arab and the 20% is a fact. I’m sure you’re aware of all the Arabs holding office in Israel (ie the Supreme Court) and that fact that half the Israeli football team and the captain are Arab.

Israel is a Jewish state and you are entitled to take up residence there if you are Jewish or have Jewish ancestry. You are not automatically granted rights if you are not Jewish, obviously.

As Israel is a religious state it doesn’t have gay marriage as such but same sex marriages carried out in other jurisdictions are recognised and gay people enjoy equal rights under the law. As do women.

All the checkpoints etc are in response to the decades long rocket and terrorist attacks that Israel has been subjected to.

This is so out of touch with reality it’s not even worthy of debate.

This is so out of touch with reality it’s not even worthy of debate.

And that’s part of the problem. For every demonstrator and protester objecting to the deaths and collective punishment of Palestinians, there are hundreds, possibly thousands across the world that don’t say much.
But they see the entirety of the Islamic world, from the Middle East to Africa and beyond as dangerous, aggressive, not holding to the same values as them and a threat. Xenia isn’t out of touch with the perceptions of thousands across the world. Whether they are wrong or not, it’s what they believe.
It’s how Trump was elected, why Brexit happened, why Ukrainian refugees had a different reception to Syrian. Not based on facts, but on gut feelings and fear of The Other.
That attitude needs to be debated, the reasons unpicked and understanding achieved. Or nothing will change.

And that’s part of the problem. For every demonstrator and protester objecting to the deaths and collective punishment of Palestinians, there are hundreds, possibly thousands across the world that don’t say much.
But they see the entirety of the Islamic world, from the Middle East to Africa and beyond as dangerous, aggressive, not holding to the same values as them and a threat. Xenia isn’t out of touch with the perceptions of thousands across the world. Whether they are wrong or not, it’s what they believe.
It’s how Trump was elected, why Brexit happened, why Ukrainian refugees had a different reception to Syrian. Not based on facts, but on gut feelings and fear of The Other.
That attitude needs to be debated, the reasons unpicked and understanding achieved. Or nothing will change.

This couldn't be more wrong in its pronouncements.

Yes, these misperceptions do need to be challenged. This article on dehumanising the "other" offers some insight:

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/16/cartoons-that-kill-the-art-and-imagery-of-genocide