To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

[Autumnalvibesofmellowness]

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

It's a complex situation and there is fault on all sides. The Jewish community in Europe was decimated in WWII as we all know, but imagine how terrifying it was being systematically hunted down and not just murdered but caged and starved and abused and in most cases still murdered. You can't protect your children and you have nowhere safe to go.

Israel is supposed to have been a solution to having nowhere safe to go. From Israel's POV they can't allow Hama's controlled Gaza to become strong enough to destroy them. To some people, keeping them downtrodden and having control over their imports, fuel, water, etc. It keeps the Israeli people safer.

This is because Hama's will not allow Israel to survive, it wants the land back and all Jewish people dead or displaced.

Palestinian people suffer, they are controlled, denied and have no say over, well pretty much anything, they can't get rid of Hama's, they don't hold elections and they have little in the way of options.

How do you get two sides who can't even agree on each others right to survive to come to a mutually agreeable solution? Israel at least has said it is (was) open to a two state solution, Hama's point blank refuse to accept anything other than the complete destruction of Israel.

I have no answers and this is a very simplistic view of the conflict, it's much more nuanced in reality but that's the best explanation I can give without writing a book.

"Israel is supposed to have been a solution to having nowhere safe to go"

This is what the problem is - it was built on forced, violent evacuations and displacement of a nation. They essentially did what was done to them. Palestinians paid the ultimate price for Europe's actions.

I completely agree, it was handled so badly and this is the outcome. It's awful for everyone involved.

To be fair though there has been conflict in that area for thousands of years between the three Abrahamic religions. 'The Rock' is THE holy place for all three religions. God created the world from that very spot. Abraham received the ten commandments there (I think that's right? Please correct me if I'm wrong), Jesus Christ went there and said something prophetic, and Muhammed also received the word of God in this spot.

Historians agree the first two temples built were Jewish, now it's Muslim. Wars have been fought over this holy site and this is why the land is so sought after.

Just a mild correction about why Jerusalem is important for Muslims -

Palestine has been the land of many, may Prophets, peace be upon them all - Abraham first migrated to PALESTINE, Lot was Palestinian as was David and his son Solomon, who lived and ruled from here.

The mihrab/prayer place of Prophet Zachary is here, and many miracles took place including the blessed birth of Jesus from his blessed mother Mary, and the attempt to crucify him.

Its ofcourse also the land where Moses brought his people, and where Talut triumphed over Goliath

Lastly, it was the first prayer direction for Muslims, which later changed to Makkah. The Prophet did not receive the Quran here, rather hes brought here and led all the Prophet's before him in prayer, cementing it as the holy place of all the Prophets of Islam.

Just some gen knowledge 😄

@Autumnalvibesofmellowness I would say it should be fine to criticise the Israeli government (or indeed any government) but not to deny Israel's right to exist, and to not deny the importance to many Jewish people globally of having a Jewish homeland.

I do think that where it becomes trickier is the discussion around Israel's right to defend itself - which it obviously has a right to, in common with any other country. Clearly at present there are many people disagreeing with the form that is taking and arguing that it is excessive. Again I don't think that viewpoint in itself should be offensive to anyone; no-one in their right mind wants to see children and families killed.

I do think a lot of the rhetoric using terms like settler-colonialist and questioning Israel's right to exist is unhelpful.

I've also seen many posts that put blame completely on Israel and seem to free Hamas of their portion of the blame for the current conflict.

Thank you for writing this, it's very interesting and I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

I believe that the rock is the one which Abraham took his son Isaac to, when he was supposed to kill him. God gave him the reprieve at the last moment.

Later on in the Old Testament, it was Moses who received the ten commandments, possibly in the Sinai (can't remember) but not at that Rock.

Now, look, just when I thought I'd get my hair washed and have a nice little read of my novel, I'll have to go find a Bible to check out where Moses was.
Mount where? Is there a Mount Sinai in the Sinai Desert? I went over there in a tourist bus, once, clutching a receptacle to me, in case I hadn't completely got rid of a nasty case of Gyppy Tummy.

Important. Please share!

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cy7Q0NqOJoE/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

The petition on the bio.

https://instagram.com/shaunking?igshid=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA==

Netanyahu wants everyone in Gaza to move to Sinai in Egypt. Hence the border being held shut by Egypt. Its the strategic goals of his and of the right wing extremists and religious zealots hes in a coalition with.
He is very unpopular, and this whole disaster is a welcome distraction for his many detractors.

My rudimentary understanding is that the Israelis bought the land that they now live on, prior to 1948. It is legally theirs. In 1948 they took more as there was a war against them on three sides. The two state solution was agreed to by Israel but not the palestinians therefore the whole lot is still Israel. Legally. The palestinians do not want a two state solution and want the lot hence the conflict. Israelis consider that they live in Israel and palestinians consider Israel to be occupied palestinian land.

I would suggest you read The Birth of Israel by Simha Flappan, Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by lan Pappe (both Israeli authors) or Norman Finklestein about the birth of Israel and the myth of "buying land"

Finkelstein ardently supported Mao as well btw, despite the mounting evidence of what was happening in China. But what are 13 million Chinese lives worth, eh? It wasn't Jewish people doing the killing, let alone in their own defence, so meh.

Incidentally, excellent job "Dinky Daisy" on using this thread as a platform to display the value of free speech, and indeed the education of women. Would we enjoy all of this under Hamas rule, I wonder? Hope nobody on here ever has to find out.

The French government has banned most pro-Palestinian protests due to its view that the movement has close links to the call for a global Islamic caliphate. Which, I am sure, is not a desire shared by most Muslims. Too bad that a handful of extremists can ruin things for everyone.

https://www.icct.nl/publication/hamas-global-jihad-impact-france

Your rudimentary understanding is incorrect.

It would be interesting to know what % of those who attend marches/rallies/vigils in support of Palestine are Muslim. I'm quite sure the last thing the Stop the War coalition want is an Islamic State 😂. I'm so sick of people making any stand against occupation, human rights violations and genocide to be synonymous with wanting to join Hamas or to form a new CALIPHATE. It's just another diversionary tactic to distract from the crimes of the Israeli government. A LOT OF US CARE ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS!

No idea why some words are in caps Hamas must be taking over my phone.

Don't lose your head, dear ;) ciao x

A lot of what you have written shows how complex the situation is, but your first paragraph I have to take issue with.

Israel controls everything that goes in and out of Gaza that isn't through a tunnel.

It doesn't matter how much aid is given if Israel say you can't have building materials then you can't build / rebuild.

errr except that Gaza has its own border with Egypt. Which Egypt has closed.

This is not my understanding at all. What makes you think Israel bought this land?

Many Jewish people who moved back into the area pre 1948 bought their land.

Yes pre 1948 the land was legally bought by Israelis. Its in every source i have looked at. The land was cheap as it was considered worthless swamp. The Israelis worked hard to turn it into arable land. This is why there was then an influx of Arab workers, many of whom then claimed to be Palestinians, although they had emigrated into Israeli farms for work from Jordan and Syria. I think this is also the cause of bad feeling and why Israelis feel they are being unfairly maligned to be called occupiers and why there is controversy about people calling themselves palestinian. As far as i understand it Israelis would argue that the origonal occupiers of the land were a sparse amount of people made up of bedoiun arabs, christians and Jews. Its all part of the complexity of the conflict I suppose.

I've gleaned this from multiple sources over time. Which part do you think is incorrect? Simply stating that is a bit lazy really. This is important and i am interested in proper discussion and debate and learning more about it.