Page 2 | Justifying the rape of women

aswarmofmidges · 25/10/2023 19:42

I will only be happy when the killings stop

I will be happier when they try to stop
Killing and start talking to each other

Maireas · 25/10/2023 19:43

Well, @Gruntsandgroans , you must have missed them, because they were plenty.
The first few days were awful. Whataboutery non stop.

chachachachangesoolala · 25/10/2023 19:45

I think what Hamas has done is reprehensible. All the atrocities from 7th Oct are reprehensible.
I think the IDF killing children is reprehensible.

Gazan citizens are not Hamas.
Israeli citizens are not their government or the IDF.

Does that make me antisemitic?

Noicant · 25/10/2023 19:45

I agree OP, I don’t struggle to feel sympathy for Gazans right now and I really don’t struggle to feel sympathy for the Israelis who have been raped, tortured and murdered.

I don’t understand how people can have so little sympathy for Israelis here. I was horrified reading about the IDF screening of footage hamas themselves took of their crimes, I can’t imagine what anyone watching it would think and feel.

Theres been this weird dismissal of some truly barbaric acts, genuinely depraved stuff.

Maireas · 25/10/2023 19:46

armchairactivist1 · 25/10/2023 18:56

@Dinkydaisy1 ok, I understand that there is doubt on both sides as to the credibility of sources, this is a difficult aspect to this situation. I watched a coroners report on the news earlier where they described broken pelvis' because of forcible penetration. But yes this was from an Israeli coroner, would there ever be an independent investigation?

I just keep thinking of the girl with the blood stained joggers

Me too. Poor woman.
The sources I looked at were BBC Verify, and Amnesty International, also the Sky News fact checkers.

Sugaristheenemy · 25/10/2023 19:47

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye as such and that the Palestinians have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women

I’m not sure I understand? I haven’t see ANY posts saying that Hamas’s behaviour is justified.

DeeCeeCherry · 25/10/2023 19:47

The sad truth is, Women are always rape casualties of war. Its a man thing and its never been any different no matter which war

Surplus2requirements · 25/10/2023 19:48

Rape is always horrendous war or not.

So is thousands of dead children, operations carried out without anaesthetic, slowly dying crushed under the rubble of your home.

Which of these things are worst in some bizarre competition of horror?

There are no winners only a reality that all decent people should be trying to move heaven and earth to try and prevent the further suffering of innocents

EasternStandard · 25/10/2023 19:48

littleburn · 25/10/2023 19:15

I don't think that's hard to understand at all. What I struggle to understand is how so many people can't seem to hold any space at all for the absolute horror of the acts of 7th October. It's a total side issue to them, 'yeah that's bad, but ...'

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Same here. So many posts along those lines.

IfYouDontAsk · 25/10/2023 19:48

armchairactivist1 · 25/10/2023 19:42

@Maireas this is what I am talking about and perhaps I am looking too much on social media but I think this is a good indicator of what people really think. There are a lot of people that I am seeing expressing the sentiment of well what would you do if you'd been oppressed, this is the lengths people are pushed to and this isn't just random people, this is university academics and active feminists. And it wasn't the Palestinians who were responsible, it was Hammas so to me that does sound like they're glossing over the horrific violations that have reportedly happened.

Yes, so much of this. “What can you expect, people have been oppressed for years…”, completely glossing over the most horrific, depraved acts.

One has to be absolutely sick in the head, absolutely consumed with hatred to not only carry out such acts but to delight in doing so.

I will never get the image of that young woman in the blood stained joggers being dragged along by her hair out of my head.

AgaMM · 25/10/2023 19:54

Your OP seems to suggest that Palestinians and Hamas are one and the same.

They are not, and it’s very goady of you to imply that.

It’s very possible to support the plight of the Palestinians, be against the way they have been treated over the past few decades and what is happening to them now, without also supporting Hamas.

What Hamas did was horrific, but it doesn’t justify the revenge killing of more Palestinian men, women and children.

saffronsoup · 25/10/2023 19:54

Are people justifying rape?

I am not sure that people who are not solely pro Israel are justifying rape - they have a different view of the conflict and understand there will be casualties of war on both sides.

What happened to the Israeli women and children (and men) is horrible. What has happened and is happening to the Palestinian women and children (and men) is horrible. I do not think an Israeli woman's life has more value than a Palestinian woman's life. Or any Israeli life has more value - man or woman. I also think it is horrible that the Israeli soldiers sodomized, beat, urinated on, and burnt the Palestinian men. War is a horrible thing.

Surplus2requirements · 25/10/2023 19:56

IfYouDontAsk · 25/10/2023 19:48

Yes, so much of this. “What can you expect, people have been oppressed for years…”, completely glossing over the most horrific, depraved acts.

One has to be absolutely sick in the head, absolutely consumed with hatred to not only carry out such acts but to delight in doing so.

I will never get the image of that young woman in the blood stained joggers being dragged along by her hair out of my head.

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There are far, far too many images that people will never get out of their heads if they let them in.

There is no monopoly on suffering and trauma. It started with horrendous terrorist attacks and is being multiplied exponentially as we watch.

BasilPersil · 25/10/2023 19:56

Because Palestinians are not Hamas? Really, fgs. Palestinian women experience incredibly high rates of SGBV already, from the very same people that carried it out over the border. It is possible to care about more than one thing at once. I know the internet finds that hard.

So yes, most of us feel the same sympathy with all women everywhere who experience sexual violence in conflict. It's the oldest recorded war weapon, by the way. It happens in every single conflict, and within armed forces themselves, by state and non state actors. That included in The Troubles, nowhere is immune.

ProvincialLady1 · 25/10/2023 19:58

littleburn · 25/10/2023 19:15

I don't think that's hard to understand at all. What I struggle to understand is how so many people can't seem to hold any space at all for the absolute horror of the acts of 7th October. It's a total side issue to them, 'yeah that's bad, but ...'

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Literally this. Right from when it happened. That's if they weren't celebrating, which many were.

ganondoof · 25/10/2023 20:02

honkersbonkers38 · 25/10/2023 19:17

FFS no-one is justifying, minimising or dismissing anything!

I've seen multiple posts over the past couple of days about how nice it is that they allegedly are treating their captives well. One poster @sidesplittinglol even said in a now deleted post that the Hamas attackers were defending themselves.

Original poster

armchairactivist1 · 25/10/2023 20:02

@AgaMM I did reply to a PP who pulled me up on that and said you're absolutely right, I was talking about people on social media referring to the Palestine area and my intention wasn't to be goady. I did try to edit the post because of this but I'm not able to

OP posts:

Echobelly · 25/10/2023 20:05

I'm Jewish and think people are mostly saying that it is not suprising that Hamas' launched some sort of attack, but not 'justifying' the specific form that attack took, which was of course truly appalling. I don't think many people are saying or implying that the individuals who suffered 'deserved it' but rather they experienced a truly awful response their government's treatment on a subset of other people. And now the Palestinians are suffering in turn the awful consequences of their leadership's hateful actions.

Noicant · 25/10/2023 20:06

BasilPersil · 25/10/2023 19:56

Because Palestinians are not Hamas? Really, fgs. Palestinian women experience incredibly high rates of SGBV already, from the very same people that carried it out over the border. It is possible to care about more than one thing at once. I know the internet finds that hard.

So yes, most of us feel the same sympathy with all women everywhere who experience sexual violence in conflict. It's the oldest recorded war weapon, by the way. It happens in every single conflict, and within armed forces themselves, by state and non state actors. That included in The Troubles, nowhere is immune.

I don’t think OP is saying Palestinians are hamas. I think she’s saying that there doesn’t seem to be much compassion for Israeli victims. I think she’s right and I don’t get it. I’m not white and seeing Palestinian girls of my DD’s age covered in blood is painful, reading about older girls being raped and murdered because they happened to go to a rave (just like my own DD will one day) is painful.

Theres no real willingness to articulate what happened to those women and girls.

Dinkydaisy1 · 25/10/2023 20:14

Echobelly · 25/10/2023 20:05

I'm Jewish and think people are mostly saying that it is not suprising that Hamas' launched some sort of attack, but not 'justifying' the specific form that attack took, which was of course truly appalling. I don't think many people are saying or implying that the individuals who suffered 'deserved it' but rather they experienced a truly awful response their government's treatment on a subset of other people. And now the Palestinians are suffering in turn the awful consequences of their leadership's hateful actions.

Agree. Eloquently put.

Sugaristheenemy · 25/10/2023 20:15

What I struggle to understand is how so many people can't seem to hold any space at all for the absolute horror of the acts of 7th October. It's a total side issue to them, 'yeah that's bad, but ...'

So do you think people can only feel concern for one side or the other? Not both? It’s not the men who dragged the bloodied teen and the others away that people are worried about. It’s the Palestinians who are caught in the middle. Do what you will to Hamas but collective punishments should stop.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 25/10/2023 20:16

Rape, as a weapon of war, is both unfathomable and ubiquitous
Rape, as a weapon of war, has supposedly* been used on 7 October (and it is inexcusable)
Rape, as a weapon of war, has also long been used, supposedly*, by settlers and the IDF against Palestinians (and it is inexcusable)

Where do you get your naive ideas from as to "how the IDF operate"? I am asking, personally, as a woman who, no, was not physically raped, but WAS told "well, I guess you are going to have to put out if you want us to let that husband of yours go!" by IDF soldiers - they were not after me; they were just after maximal humiliation for my then husband (and I told them to go fuck themselves - my husband would rather drop dead, as would I!). I hope they rot in hell!

Also ...

the indiscriminate bombing of civilians, including children, is unfathomable
no, you do NOT get away with this by randomly bringing up "but, rape, though" as justification - "your" side does that, too! And - whatever the "other side" does - neither rape nor the targetting (simply not giving a shit counts, too!) of civilians is acceptable!

Finally: go sit in a fucking corner and hang your head in shame for daring to use "rape" as a tool for political propaganda! Do you have any fucking idea, sitting safely in your chair, spouting propaganda for your far-right government ... do you have ANY IDEA AT ALL how fucking scary this is?

Because: I think I might have at least an inkling. It did not HAPPEN to be - but the THREAT thereof did - and it was done by the IDF. And I have never before or after been so fucking terrified in my life!

So, just: HOW DARE YOU???!!!

I believe women - I am also absolutely not interested in being sued for libel!

Sugaristheenemy · 25/10/2023 20:16

I don't think many people are saying or implying that the individuals who suffered 'deserved it' but rather they experienced a truly awful response their government's treatment on a subset of other people. And now the Palestinians are suffering in turn the awful consequences of their leadership's hateful actions

Yes, this. Exactly!

Gruntsandgroans · 25/10/2023 20:18

HeidiInTheBigCity · 25/10/2023 20:16

Rape, as a weapon of war, is both unfathomable and ubiquitous
Rape, as a weapon of war, has supposedly* been used on 7 October (and it is inexcusable)
Rape, as a weapon of war, has also long been used, supposedly*, by settlers and the IDF against Palestinians (and it is inexcusable)

Where do you get your naive ideas from as to "how the IDF operate"? I am asking, personally, as a woman who, no, was not physically raped, but WAS told "well, I guess you are going to have to put out if you want us to let that husband of yours go!" by IDF soldiers - they were not after me; they were just after maximal humiliation for my then husband (and I told them to go fuck themselves - my husband would rather drop dead, as would I!). I hope they rot in hell!

Also ...

the indiscriminate bombing of civilians, including children, is unfathomable
no, you do NOT get away with this by randomly bringing up "but, rape, though" as justification - "your" side does that, too! And - whatever the "other side" does - neither rape nor the targetting (simply not giving a shit counts, too!) of civilians is acceptable!

Finally: go sit in a fucking corner and hang your head in shame for daring to use "rape" as a tool for political propaganda! Do you have any fucking idea, sitting safely in your chair, spouting propaganda for your far-right government ... do you have ANY IDEA AT ALL how fucking scary this is?

Because: I think I might have at least an inkling. It did not HAPPEN to be - but the THREAT thereof did - and it was done by the IDF. And I have never before or after been so fucking terrified in my life!

So, just: HOW DARE YOU???!!!

I believe women - I am also absolutely not interested in being sued for libel!

Well said Heidi. I'm sorry for what both you and your husband went through at the hands of the IDF.

INeedAnotherName · 25/10/2023 20:25

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye as such and that the Palestinians have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women? Especially people who support women's rights...
I am absolutely fucking sick to the back teeth of people insinuating that Hamas and the Palestinian people are the same. That the Palestinian people are deserving of their obliteration because some, not all, voted in 2006.

how do you justify the brutal rape of women? Especially people who support women's rights...
Seriously, that is beyond goady. How fucking dare you insinuate that anyone except animals think rape is okay at any level. I hope you get help. I really do.