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Conflict in the Middle East

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Original poster

Justifying the rape of women

988 replies

armchairactivist1 · 25/10/2023 18:35

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
Post edited by MNHQ

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EsmaCannonball · 25/10/2023 23:46

SadTimes96 · 25/10/2023 23:20

I think the problem is that Israel does discredit itself often. Like the fake intercepted Hamas call and fake report of 40 babies being beheaded. These claims were widely deemed as being fake.

Many people are waiting for investigations into evidence before commenting. Channel 4 Fact check has said the evidence for these accusations is still emerging. I will wait for the fact check first.

I guess we should be thankful that Hamas filmed themselves laughing as they shot a South East Asian farm worker in the stomach and then beheaded him slowly with a gardening implement, otherwise people would be saying that was fake too.

Coyoacan · 25/10/2023 23:47

FOJN · 25/10/2023 18:41

Are all Palestinians Hamas to you? All Palestinian children apprentice Hamas fighters? Please try to distinguish between Hamas and Palestinian civilians.

Outside of a few extremists I have yet to see anyone who is concerned about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza justify the actions of Hamas.

Exploiting the brutal attacks on innocent Israelis to score points is reprehensible.

This

Some people seem to think that if we oppose children being killed and are campaigning to stop it, it's because we support rape. I don't get the logic.

Desertrose2023 · 25/10/2023 23:49

Bigminnie1 · 25/10/2023 23:10

@Desertrose2023 and @Dinkydaisy1 your blatant anti- semitism is showing again, like it has on other threads. I am glad you find it funny that the lies posted in the media about that hospital bombing led to yet another increase in anti - semitism around the world. Shame on you.

Oh give it a rest, everyone can see past these mudslinging tactics now. It’s tired and shameful. People are allowed to legitimately criticize the actions of Israel and call it out for breaching international humanitarian law and terrorizing, starving and collectively punishing a civilian population.

2000 children are dead.

Do better.

Coyoacan · 25/10/2023 23:50

EsmaCannonball · 25/10/2023 19:38

I wonder if the people who demand that Israel, above all, be proportionate would be happier if fewer Palestinians were killed but were killed in the exact same manner as Hamas killed the Israelis?

Personally I think revenge should be taken on the actual perpetrator, not on their neighbours or someone who looks like them

Alcemeg · 26/10/2023 00:02

Coyoacan · 25/10/2023 23:50

Personally I think revenge should be taken on the actual perpetrator, not on their neighbours or someone who looks like them

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Yes, of course. Unfortunately, and I know it's not politically correct to say this, it's becoming increasingly apparent that "the actual perpetrator" included what appear to be ordinary Gazan civilians. We only know this because the idiots filmed themselves doing it, because they were so pleased with themselves.

JuvenileEmu · 26/10/2023 00:05

Coyoacan · 25/10/2023 23:50

Personally I think revenge should be taken on the actual perpetrator, not on their neighbours or someone who looks like them

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I think everyone would like that. But it's not possible, is it? Unfortunately, the innocent Palestinians will be the ones suffering. Hamas will suffer, but the Palestinians and Israelis who just wanted to live their lives peacefully are going to go through hell. No justice, and while we bicker on Mumsnet people are in torment. Maybe we should all die. What fucking world is this?

Dinkydaisy1 · 26/10/2023 00:06

Desertrose2023 · 25/10/2023 23:49

Oh give it a rest, everyone can see past these mudslinging tactics now. It’s tired and shameful. People are allowed to legitimately criticize the actions of Israel and call it out for breaching international humanitarian law and terrorizing, starving and collectively punishing a civilian population.

2000 children are dead.

Do better.

Show quote history

It's flipping unbelievable that an onion headline is causing more angst than thousands of bombs on civilians, mostly children.

What priviledge

Desertrose2023 · 26/10/2023 00:08

Dinkydaisy1 · 26/10/2023 00:06

It's flipping unbelievable that an onion headline is causing more angst than thousands of bombs on civilians, mostly children.

What priviledge

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Just more distraction tactics because it’s impossible to justify the indefensible.

Gruntsandgroans · 26/10/2023 00:10

JuvenileEmu · 25/10/2023 23:30

But you do think you have the high ground, don't you? You and your fellow travellers. Sure, what Hamas did was awful, but but but ..

I visited Auschwitz a few years ago. It was horrifying, of course, but I guess I could comfort myself that I wouldn't have been on the side of the Nazis. But the past couple of weeks have made me realise that my lovely, left wing, on-the-side-of- the-underdogs friends would have just as capable of shoving Jews into cattle wagons as the Nazis. But but but...

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2.2 million Jewish people are caged up on a small strip of land, half of them children. There is no escape, no where to go. They are starved, they are deprived of water, they are denied aid. 12,000 tonnes of bombs of dropped on the trapped Jews over 16 days, they are told to move south but they get bombed anyway. There is no mercy. 1000s are killed, 10s of 1000s injured. Whole bloodlines are wiped out. Muslims say 'Jewish children have brought this on themselves' they call them 'children of the darkness'. They say they will not stop until everyone is gone.

People say 'Never again' but here it is, happening, right in front of our eyes. Your 'left wing friends' can see it, the difference is when they say never again, they mean never again to anyone.

ssd · 26/10/2023 00:10

Ahh but they'll keep trying

Itsaharddlife · 26/10/2023 00:15

No ones answered me yet. What's antisemitic about the article? Im becoming more convinced these words (antisemitism and nazi and holocaust) are just spouted out when they can't justify isreals war crimes. Yet when someone points out the hypocrisy then we're all racist and celebrate rapists

Dinkydaisy1 · 26/10/2023 00:16

Gruntsandgroans · 26/10/2023 00:10

2.2 million Jewish people are caged up on a small strip of land, half of them children. There is no escape, no where to go. They are starved, they are deprived of water, they are denied aid. 12,000 tonnes of bombs of dropped on the trapped Jews over 16 days, they are told to move south but they get bombed anyway. There is no mercy. 1000s are killed, 10s of 1000s injured. Whole bloodlines are wiped out. Muslims say 'Jewish children have brought this on themselves' they call them 'children of the darkness'. They say they will not stop until everyone is gone.

People say 'Never again' but here it is, happening, right in front of our eyes. Your 'left wing friends' can see it, the difference is when they say never again, they mean never again to anyone.

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I hope I would fight for them as much as I fight for the Palestinian population.

This is not a religious issue. It's a humanitarian issue.

Gruntsandgroans · 26/10/2023 00:19

Dinkydaisy1 · 26/10/2023 00:16

I hope I would fight for them as much as I fight for the Palestinian population.

This is not a religious issue. It's a humanitarian issue.

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Me too. But your one that I quoted is comparing her left wing friends with Nazis for saying no, never again to genocide....

Lavender14 · 26/10/2023 00:24

I think it happens because there's misogyny underlying in men and with predominantly male fighters its like they have an excuse to be sexually violent when they're already being physically violent. Similar to the 'excuses' men give themselves to abuse their partners etc. They get into an extreme situation and suddenly all bets are off and normal social boundaries are gone to a more extreme extent because that ugliness was underlying in that individual. So in that respect I think some men who carried out the attacks won't think to rape a woman but the ones with underlying misogynistic tendencies will see it as acceptable. I think much more of it happens in war scenarios globally than what gets reported sadly. From what I've seen there's been a range of responses from hamas fighters, some sparing women and children and some brutally violating and murdering it doesn't seem to be a blanket approach from what footage I've seen.

I don't think I've seen anyone justify the rape and murder of innocent civilians. I've seen people empathise with Palestinian frustration with the Israeli government and their approach to things and worry about the civilian cost in palestine now as things escalate but to me it's two separate issues. War crimes should be called out no matter who is perpetrating them. You can understand that a group of people are unhappy in a non democratic set up and feel the need to resort to violence to feel seen and heard, that's happened in almost every country in the world at some point. But war crimes are still war crimes and can be strongly denounced at the same time.

Coyoacan · 26/10/2023 02:03

Alcemeg · 26/10/2023 00:02

Yes, of course. Unfortunately, and I know it's not politically correct to say this, it's becoming increasingly apparent that "the actual perpetrator" included what appear to be ordinary Gazan civilians. We only know this because the idiots filmed themselves doing it, because they were so pleased with themselves.

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Oh that is such a relief. Here am I suffering the torments of the damned for the children being killed and maimed, but now I know they are all Hamas fighters, I will be able to rest in peace.

Cormoran · 26/10/2023 03:04

I haven’t read a single post justifying the raping of women but I have read far too many just justifying the killing of children in retaliation.

Bigminnie1 · 26/10/2023 07:27

Itsaharddlife · 25/10/2023 23:41

Can someone genuinely point out what was antisemitic about the onion article? I read it and still don't know. It was mocking Israel but is that the equivalent of hating Jews?

I have already explained why. Please read.

Bigminnie1 · 26/10/2023 07:29

I am bowing out now. The anti- semitism by several posters on this thread is disgusting.

Sugaristheenemy · 26/10/2023 07:53

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Desertrose2023 · 26/10/2023 08:02

Bigminnie1 · 26/10/2023 07:29

I am bowing out now. The anti- semitism by several posters on this thread is disgusting.

If you genuinely believe myself or other posters have been antisemitic please feel free to report it to mumsnet and I will accept whatever their review determines. I will not have this type of meritless accusation just lobbed at me.

Worddance · 26/10/2023 08:16

Alcemeg · 26/10/2023 00:02

Yes, of course. Unfortunately, and I know it's not politically correct to say this, it's becoming increasingly apparent that "the actual perpetrator" included what appear to be ordinary Gazan civilians. We only know this because the idiots filmed themselves doing it, because they were so pleased with themselves.

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I hope you're not suggesting that Gazan women and children can be killed indiscriminately because you've seen a YouTube video or two in which a Hamas terrorist looked like they might be civilians.

Worddance · 26/10/2023 08:22

Alcemeg · 25/10/2023 23:03

Or crowds of angry men swarming through a fence to rape, maim and kill, as in the video.

@Itsaharddlife Why were you quick to show disgust at pro Palestinians supposedly celebrating but when I point out Israelis do the same you don't seem to hold the same level of disgust?
Because I haven't seen them do it publicly, en masse, in the streets of cities?

Private celebrations are understandable, on both sides, but these huge demonstrations...?

Admittedly I'm not watching TV news etc so I might have missed something.

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The level of hatred that has become endemic is appalling if you really think that it's understandable to celebrate privately on hearing of the deaths and rapes of children and women on the other side.

Itsaharddlife · 26/10/2023 08:32

"I have already explained why. Please read."
No you didn't.
Just saying something is antisemitic does not make it so. If someone doesn't agree with Israel or thr IDF that does not make them antisemitic.

Alcemeg · 26/10/2023 09:42

Worddance · 26/10/2023 08:16

I hope you're not suggesting that Gazan women and children can be killed indiscriminately because you've seen a YouTube video or two in which a Hamas terrorist looked like they might be civilians.

Show quote history

No, I'm saying it's been confirmed (including by the Muslim women's rights activist, Dr Qanta Ahmed) that hundreds and possibly thousands of "civilian" Gazans repeatedly crossed the border on 7 Oct to enjoy their spree. You can actually see them in the Hamas GoPro footage.

SomeCatFromJapan · 26/10/2023 10:05

I think the problem is that Israel does discredit itself often. Like the fake intercepted Hamas call and fake report of 40 babies being beheaded. These claims were widely deemed as being fake.

"In several clips, the Hamas killers fire shots into the heads of people who are already dead"

I suppose it becomes a bit hard to tell at that point whether the intent was to behead or not. For all the difference it makes.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/why-israeli-officials-screened-footage-hamas-attack/675735/

A Record of Pure, Predatory Sadism

Officials in Israel screened footage of the Hamas attack for the press: “What we shared with you, you should know it,” one official said.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/why-israeli-officials-screened-footage-hamas-attack/675735