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Conflict in the Middle East

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Original poster

Justifying the rape of women

988 replies

armchairactivist1 · 25/10/2023 18:35

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
Post edited by MNHQ

OP posts:
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66
Xenia · 25/10/2023 20:27

ISIS were very keen on this too - all those poor Yazidi girls.
Not all soldiers use rape as a tool of war. It breaches the Geneva convention which sets out the rules of war but terrorists like Hamas, ISIS, Al Q etc could not care less about that, nor does Russia. This is why we must triumph over them and prevent their attempts to ruin our democracy and that of Israel.

littleburn · 25/10/2023 20:28

Sugaristheenemy · 25/10/2023 20:15

What I struggle to understand is how so many people can't seem to hold any space at all for the absolute horror of the acts of 7th October. It's a total side issue to them, 'yeah that's bad, but ...'

So do you think people can only feel concern for one side or the other? Not both? It’s not the men who dragged the bloodied teen and the others away that people are worried about. It’s the Palestinians who are caught in the middle. Do what you will to Hamas but collective punishments should stop.

I 100% think people can and should have concern for both sides. I certainly do.

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/10/2023 20:28

Echobelly · 25/10/2023 20:05

I'm Jewish and think people are mostly saying that it is not suprising that Hamas' launched some sort of attack, but not 'justifying' the specific form that attack took, which was of course truly appalling. I don't think many people are saying or implying that the individuals who suffered 'deserved it' but rather they experienced a truly awful response their government's treatment on a subset of other people. And now the Palestinians are suffering in turn the awful consequences of their leadership's hateful actions.

Nailed it.

AgaMM · 25/10/2023 20:41

HeidiInTheBigCity · 25/10/2023 20:16

  1. Rape, as a weapon of war, is both unfathomable and ubiquitous
  2. Rape, as a weapon of war, has supposedly* been used on 7 October (and it is inexcusable)
  3. Rape, as a weapon of war, has also long been used, supposedly*, by settlers and the IDF against Palestinians (and it is inexcusable)

Where do you get your naive ideas from as to "how the IDF operate"? I am asking, personally, as a woman who, no, was not physically raped, but WAS told "well, I guess you are going to have to put out if you want us to let that husband of yours go!" by IDF soldiers - they were not after me; they were just after maximal humiliation for my then husband (and I told them to go fuck themselves - my husband would rather drop dead, as would I!). I hope they rot in hell!

Also ...

  1. the indiscriminate bombing of civilians, including children, is unfathomable
  2. no, you do NOT get away with this by randomly bringing up "but, rape, though" as justification - "your" side does that, too! And - whatever the "other side" does - neither rape nor the targetting (simply not giving a shit counts, too!) of civilians is acceptable!

Finally: go sit in a fucking corner and hang your head in shame for daring to use "rape" as a tool for political propaganda! Do you have any fucking idea, sitting safely in your chair, spouting propaganda for your far-right government ... do you have ANY IDEA AT ALL how fucking scary this is?

Because: I think I might have at least an inkling. It did not HAPPEN to be - but the THREAT thereof did - and it was done by the IDF. And I have never before or after been so fucking terrified in my life!

So, just: HOW DARE YOU???!!!

  • I believe women - I am also absolutely not interested in being sued for libel!

“Thanking” your post doesn’t quite seem right.

I’m so sorry you had to deal with that. Hope you and your (ex?) husband are both doing ok.

EasterIssland · 25/10/2023 20:42

Op can you point at me at one comment exactly where a poster has
“how do they justify brutally raping them first? “ ? Cuz I’ve not seen a single comment justifying it.

Btw Israel idfs have raped Palestinian women as well

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/deceased-israeli-soldier-boasted-about-raping-palestinian-woman/amp

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/amp/

so in my case , I’m horrified by both scenarios

IDF removes gag on 2016 conviction of officer for raping Palestinian woman - The Times of Israel

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/amp/

Noicant · 25/10/2023 20:49

HeidiInTheBigCity · 25/10/2023 20:16

  1. Rape, as a weapon of war, is both unfathomable and ubiquitous
  2. Rape, as a weapon of war, has supposedly* been used on 7 October (and it is inexcusable)
  3. Rape, as a weapon of war, has also long been used, supposedly*, by settlers and the IDF against Palestinians (and it is inexcusable)

Where do you get your naive ideas from as to "how the IDF operate"? I am asking, personally, as a woman who, no, was not physically raped, but WAS told "well, I guess you are going to have to put out if you want us to let that husband of yours go!" by IDF soldiers - they were not after me; they were just after maximal humiliation for my then husband (and I told them to go fuck themselves - my husband would rather drop dead, as would I!). I hope they rot in hell!

Also ...

  1. the indiscriminate bombing of civilians, including children, is unfathomable
  2. no, you do NOT get away with this by randomly bringing up "but, rape, though" as justification - "your" side does that, too! And - whatever the "other side" does - neither rape nor the targetting (simply not giving a shit counts, too!) of civilians is acceptable!

Finally: go sit in a fucking corner and hang your head in shame for daring to use "rape" as a tool for political propaganda! Do you have any fucking idea, sitting safely in your chair, spouting propaganda for your far-right government ... do you have ANY IDEA AT ALL how fucking scary this is?

Because: I think I might have at least an inkling. It did not HAPPEN to be - but the THREAT thereof did - and it was done by the IDF. And I have never before or after been so fucking terrified in my life!

So, just: HOW DARE YOU???!!!

  • I believe women - I am also absolutely not interested in being sued for libel!

I’m sorry that happened to you Heidi, it’s vile, disgusting and not excusable by anything, But I don’t think OP is using it as a propaganda thing. I think it’s a “we take rape very seriously unless it happens in x situation and then we shrug our shoulder and say it is what it is”.

I think thats true, I think people turn a blind eye to women being raped when it’s their “own side” doing it. But I also think it extends to other things, torture, detention, abuse of power etc. It’s repeated across cultures and time.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 25/10/2023 20:50

AgaMM · 25/10/2023 20:41

“Thanking” your post doesn’t quite seem right.

I’m so sorry you had to deal with that. Hope you and your (ex?) husband are both doing ok.

Show quote history

Thank you!

And, yes, he is an ex (nothing to do with politics - just your bog-standard "incompatible life plans").

We are, FWIW, both "okay", as in "living in prosperity, high-earners, rich country" - we are also both "not okay" as in: "deeply traumatised for life - there are some things therapy cannot just fix".

But we are both safe, very well paid, and ... that is a lot more than a lot of people - both Israeli and Palestinian civilians, people in Gaza, families of hostages, ... you name them - can say for themselves and their loved ones tonight!

As such, I am grateful to be where I am!

But also: I will NOT apologise for "flying off the handle" on this particular subject! I will NOT STAND for that level of cynicism!

Noicant · 25/10/2023 20:51

EasterIssland · 25/10/2023 20:42

Op can you point at me at one comment exactly where a poster has
“how do they justify brutally raping them first? “ ? Cuz I’ve not seen a single comment justifying it.

Btw Israel idfs have raped Palestinian women as well

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/deceased-israeli-soldier-boasted-about-raping-palestinian-woman/amp

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/amp/

so in my case , I’m horrified by both scenarios

At least that one was jailed but they should have named the bastard and published his picture.

JustAMinutePleass · 25/10/2023 20:57

Rape is a disgusting tool of war. All armies, including the IDF, use it.

EsmaCannonball · 25/10/2023 21:01

Palestinians aren't Hamas, or even necessarily Hamas supporters, but how does that work in a war, especially when the enemy fighters have deliberately embedded themselves among the population? Not all Germans are Nazis so we just let the Nazis carry on attacking until we can sift all German Nazis from German non-Nazis? It's suicidal. Nobody seems to be offering a solution to how to stop Hamas launching terror attacks and rocket attacks. Even if Israel enforces the border and blocks Gazans from working in Israel they are accused of imprisonment and discrimination.

helpddgrow · 25/10/2023 21:04

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ for privacy reasons

dadoodoodoo · 25/10/2023 21:05

Because it’s possible to despise Hamas while still wanting a long term peaceful solution that recognizes the rights of both Palestinians and Israelis.

Worddance · 25/10/2023 21:10

ShellySarah · 25/10/2023 18:38

Women stay oddly silent at that here. Just chest beating screams of stop harming Gaza.

I think it's just men tbh. Gang rape happens in most armed conflicts. Even in Ukraine. It makes me think that given half a chance most men would do it if law and order broke down.

Edited

Chest beating screams? What a callous and obnoxious tone. You do realise thousands of children are being starved and are dying? How dare you sneer at anyone reacting to a tragedy like this. It doesn't mean they didn't also react in a similar way to the atrocities in Israel. I certainly did. What is wrong with you?

Original poster
armchairactivist1 · 25/10/2023 21:13

@helpddgrow I'm not justifying the deaths of the Palestinians. The citizens are a victim of terrorist rule and are paying the ultimate price for that which I absolutely condemn. I don't agree with the murder or torture or rape of any civilian. I'm talking about people who have described the attacks as exhilarating and a triumph of power. The university professor from Cornell in US who said it was exhilerating and you'd have to be not human to feel the same. Similar comments have got a lot of support on social media. I'm not the sick one here, I would be outraged if someone said the same thing about the attacks in Gaza. I feel sick to my stomach about some of the comments I've seen in the past few weeks and cannot fathom how 'some' people do not have empathy for the victims on all sides of this

OP posts:
Worddance · 25/10/2023 21:15

It's possible to recognise that oppression breeds terrorism without thinking that this means innocent Israelis deserved what happened to them. I wish that people in your position could recognise that there's no hierarchy of suffering and it's not a competition. The rest of the world is not in your entrenched position and may be capable of compassion without taking sides. However the more Israel takes this kind of awful revenge, the more people with humanity will grieve and agitated for the children being killed in increasing numbers, simply because it is happening now, sanctioned by the global community, and could still be stopped or at least paused.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 25/10/2023 21:16

I will have to hide this thread now, I guess!

Even just posting what I did ... I am having a panic th and experiencing the mother of all flashbacks right now! I am typing this, literally, in type ... gasp ... type mode!

If I have ever changed the mind of anybody at all. On anything. Ever.

LET IT BE THIS!

It is NOT OKAY to abuse "rape, as a weapon of war" for propaganda!

I will try and respond to anyone who disagrees tomorrow or so - but just ... literally too fucking upset now! I will say things I do not actually mean if I keep on responding right now!

Dinkydaisy1 · 25/10/2023 21:16

armchairactivist1 · 25/10/2023 18:35

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
Post edited by MNHQ

Btw, I don't think I've seen any posts in the last 2 weeks "justifying" rape. Discussions about what and ifs happened and why, and political arguments, but nowhere has anyone justified rape.

Dinkydaisy1 · 25/10/2023 21:20

Worddance · 25/10/2023 21:15

It's possible to recognise that oppression breeds terrorism without thinking that this means innocent Israelis deserved what happened to them. I wish that people in your position could recognise that there's no hierarchy of suffering and it's not a competition. The rest of the world is not in your entrenched position and may be capable of compassion without taking sides. However the more Israel takes this kind of awful revenge, the more people with humanity will grieve and agitated for the children being killed in increasing numbers, simply because it is happening now, sanctioned by the global community, and could still be stopped or at least paused.

Well said.

On another post, someone said even mentioning the word "colonised" or "occupation" is the new "rats" "nazism" "the new holocaust", suggesting that anyone who even uses those words is akin to those calling for the holocaust

Sdpbody · 25/10/2023 21:26

I ultimately believe that many men would rape given the chance. If society broke down, women would be in serious harm.

MissyB1 · 25/10/2023 21:26

Worddance · 25/10/2023 21:15

It's possible to recognise that oppression breeds terrorism without thinking that this means innocent Israelis deserved what happened to them. I wish that people in your position could recognise that there's no hierarchy of suffering and it's not a competition. The rest of the world is not in your entrenched position and may be capable of compassion without taking sides. However the more Israel takes this kind of awful revenge, the more people with humanity will grieve and agitated for the children being killed in increasing numbers, simply because it is happening now, sanctioned by the global community, and could still be stopped or at least paused.

Excellent post.

Itsaharddlife · 25/10/2023 21:29

I haven't read/seen anyone justifying the murder/rape of Israeli civilians. If there are people genuinely ok with what happened on 7th october and think its a reason to celebrate then i honestly worry about this world. I was disgusted when I read about the women tearing down posters of Israeli hostages.

I don't personally think anyone with any sense of compassion or humanity will justify the killing of civilians on either side. However the fact remains that this "conflict" did not start on 7th October. For years the plight of the Palestinians has been ignored. Atrocities have been committed and reported (though not widely) by IDF soldiers against Palestinian men women and children. Yet these have always been ignored. I wish everyone was quick to condemn when these atrocities are committed by the other side.

feralunderclass · 25/10/2023 21:34

EsmaCannonball · 25/10/2023 19:38

I wonder if the people who demand that Israel, above all, be proportionate would be happier if fewer Palestinians were killed but were killed in the exact same manner as Hamas killed the Israelis?

Factually, Israel have been killing Palestinians for years. Torturing adults, children, women. Raping women in detention centres and sexually abusing detained children. Horrific human rights violations. Do you think they've been doing these things in an 'acceptable' way? None of it is acceptable or OK. I'm honestly not sure why anyone would think any type of abuse is OK?

Sugaristheenemy · 25/10/2023 21:36

I'm talking about people who have described the attacks as exhilarating and a triumph of power. The university professor from Cornell in US who said it was exhilerating and you'd have to be not human to feel the same.

Yes, well, obviously that’s messed up but I don’t understand why you’re asking the people on this board to account for it? I mean maybe there have been posts claiming it’s all very exhilarating, and I just haven’t seen them because they were deleted, but I find it a bit odd all the same.

feralunderclass · 25/10/2023 21:46

I feel these type of threads are a way to distract from the atrocities. Who on earth is going to say rape is justified?

newwings · 25/10/2023 21:51

DeeCeeCherry · 25/10/2023 19:47

The sad truth is, Women are always rape casualties of war. Its a man thing and its never been any different no matter which war

I feel like most evils are a man thing at the moment. Literally sick to my core at all the barbaric behaviour and actions in the world right now, yet we can make bastard robots, get people on the moon but not broker peace.