What do you understand from the chant 'Free Palestine'?

[piddocktrumperiness]

Just that really. I have seen there have been many marches these last few days where people in solidarity with Palestinians chant 'Free Palestine'
Now I understand that as Free Palestine from the occupation; West Bank vs Settlers, military rule, and blockades in Gaza.
I have asked a Palestinian friend and a Lebanese neighbour what they think it means and they confirmed what I thought.

But the chant is triggering many others to believe it is anti Semitic or that it means something else and it's passing me as to what else it could mean.

? I did not say he was an IDF spokesman, I said he is a member of the IDF digital spokesteam. He works for Netanhyu as a member of the larger digital spokes team, but his role is on that team is to post about IDF operations.

I feel like we may be splitting hairs. The main point is he posted the claim of credit that IDF had done the one hit on one hospital as part of his job for the Israeli government and as a duly authorised public relations representative of them and not in a private capacity as a random commentator in the Twitter-sphere.

It isn’t what is meant, it is how biased receivers have chosen to interpret it.
Compare “land of the free from sea to shining sea” to “free from the river to the sea”. They both mean and are intended to mean freedom for everyone living on those lands.

Failing to infer something sinister into the latter when it is no different from the former in terms of language and sentiment, isn’t being willfully ignorant in my opinion. It’s more being reasonable in observing that one statement is deemed inspiring and the other is deemed sinister wholly based on the religion of who has said it.

What does white horse spirit mean?
I saw another poster imply something.

What would be an acceptable chant or slogan for pro-Palestinian protesters?

Is the Palestinian flag offensive to those who find the ‘free palestine’ chant offensive?

What did they imply?

White Horse Spirit is a Spirit that is sacred to the Vale of the White Horse in rural Wiltshire. It would appear to the Ancient people roaming the hills as a symbol of hope during times of war. It had the power to grant wishes. This is still believed today by myself and others who grew up there.

You just can’t be that arrogant, surely, to say, point blank, ‘that is what it’s intended to mean’

The definitely is how it’s meant to some people.

Both who chant it, and who hear it. You cannot think you speak for everyone?

The right wing nutter mentioned upthread ‘turning it on its head’ is proof of it.
As are the multiple people commenting that’s how they interpret it.

Listen, you want to argue your right to chant it, fill your boots.
I’m not going to stop you/anyone else.

I would hope that most of the people chanting it mean it they way you’ve stated, and I’m sure most do. Maybe they’ve never heard the more sinister meaning.

But many people do consider it a call to jihad.

It’s just not something I would personally do.

I wouldn’t chant something so open to interpretation if I genuinely wanted peace, knowing how it could be taken.

But, if you want to argue the toss that people who may feel threatened/marginalised/frightened hearing it are merely ‘choosing’ to interpret it that way, that’s fine.

You do you, boo.

No, the flag itself isn’t offensive.

I did suggest a chant actually, if you’ve read my earlier post.
But quite literally, anything else in my opinion.

But if you really want to chant that, chant it.

No one’s going to stop you.

But there may be people reading this who had no idea of the sinister motives that could potentially be associated with this chant.

I find it strange people who do know, still argue that they want to keep chanting it, but that just might be me.

It’s up to them how they want to show their support I guess

@PicturesOfDogs

You have just said to me You just can’t be that arrogant, surely, to say, point blank, ‘that is what it’s intended to mean’

When you have been that arrogant & more on this thread by saying :
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free‘ is a call to eradicate all Jews. From the river Jordan all the way to the Mediterranean Sea. That’s what it means. Now if that’s not what people actually mean when they chant it, then they’re either wilfully ignorant, or just dangerously ignorant.”

You posted this after I said most Palestinians do not meant it that way nor think of it in those terms, these are the people who came up with the chant and use it, so think they they’d know best what it means:
“A Dec 2020 survey http://pcpsr.org/en/node/829 of just over 1,000 Palestinians found that when Palestinians were asked their top priorities no one even mentioned overthrowing the state of Israel. All responses recognised Israel’s right to exist:
“45% believe that the first most vital Palestinian goal should be to end Israeli occupation in the areas occupied in 1967 and build a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. By contrast, 29% believe the first most vital goal should be to obtain the right of return of refugees to their 1948 towns and villages, 13% believe that the first and most vital goal should be to build a pious or moral individual and a religious society, one that applies all Islamic teachings and an identical percentage (13%) believes it should be to establish a democratic political system that respects freedoms and rights of Palestinians.” Given this the “Free Palestine” chant most probably represents freedom from occupation to form a sovereign state in a two state solution with Israel.”

@PicturesOfDogs ah yes - just seen your suggestion! Peace for Palestine would be a nice thing to say or have on a poster. I am intending on going to a protest and this thread has made me think. I don’t think free Palestine is offensive but I do understand the river to the sea chant can be taken as being very offensive.

I think what is clear is that the status quo just isn’t working for Israelis and Palestinians……how do you get them to a table to start all over again. If only!!! I’d certainly like to bang a few heads together…….

Like I said, you do you boo

Honestly, I feel like a two state solution is the only real answer, but I can’t really see it ever happening.
How do you go about unpicking it all?

So much has happened on both sides, I understand the plight of the Palestinian people and the illegal settlements, human rights abuses and it’s just horrendous and I’m thankful I am where I am.

I also understand the feeling of Jewish people who wanted a safe country after the atrocities that have happened over the years, and I agree that Israel has the right to exist. Not the right to keep building these illegal settlements though.

I honestly don’t know what to feel about it all

You also said this about Free Palestine- But many people do consider it a call to jihad. Shows you know nothing as to the concept of jihad. Bet you haven’t even heard of greater or lesser jihad.

They say that people fear that which they do not understand. It would help if more people took the time to understand the Islamic religion and cultures.

I haven’t. Can’t say the different types of jihad have ever been a particular interest of mine. It might well help if we all took the time to learn the various calls of the different types of jihad.

What also might help is that when you have a phrase or chant, which can be interpreted one of two ways, one of the ways being the eradication of an entire people, you might want to err on the side of caution to make your intention clear.

That’s all I’m saying.

Plenty of other sayings to put on the placards which make the peaceful intent clear.

It's not his job. He worked for Likud, not the govt.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/oct/19/explaining-a-deleted-x-post-that-said-israel-is-re/

Why does he describe himself as a "media influencer"? Why isn't he on the list of spokespeople which is easily available?

He's a pro Israel blogger who worked for Netanyahu's party. He heard a rumour and posted too soon, not a proper source. And we all agree I think that proper sources are important. If Lerner or Levy had made that tweet, it would be a completely different matter.

You are splitting hairs. Likud is the party in power in Israel with Netanhyu as its head. It’s a bit like me saying oh, so and so works on Sunak’s digital spokesteam and posts updates to SM regarding MoD activities in an official capacity. And you going, no so and so works for the Tories, that’s not the government. 🙄

He works for Netanhyu who is the PM of Israel, that’s who pays his pay cheque. It’s a government job. It’s a political appointee type job rather than a civil service job, but it’s a government job.

How about the “Death to Arabs” chant of Lehava?

No, that doesn’t quite convey ‘peace’ either.

You’re getting worse at this.

Do you want to try again?

There is more to the story.
https://jewishinsider.com/2023/10/hananya-naftali-spokesman-israeli-government-war/

I think he was quickly disavowed and demoted after that post.

*He works for Netanhyu who is the PM of Israel, that’s who pays his pay cheque. It’s a government job. It’s a political appointee type job rather than a civil service job, but it’s a government job".

Did you see the attached? Find me proof he's employed in a job where he has any knowledge of what Israel are actually doing and I'll apologise.

Try what?

Westerners of all religions can sing “land of the free from sea to shining sea” and it be thought of as fabulous patriotic stuff that calls for freedom, justice and equality for all…

But when muslims (and some Christians) sing “Free Palestine from the river to the sea”, it is bizzarely alleged that this very similar song is in no way different to a “Death to all Arabs” chant by Lehava, but directed towards Jews.

I do confess I think it’s looking for an excuse to silence opposition to occupation and oppression.

“Hanaya Naftali, a former member of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s communications staff.” (He was a member)

“When Naftali married his wife, India, in January 2023, Netanyahu spoke at his wedding and said “he works for me. That’s not an easy thing to do. But he does it very well.”

The proof is right there that he was employed but, I suspect after the hospital post, he became “not currently employed”.

I’m a bit shocked you do not recognise damage control for what it is. No one has said he has never had that job…only the he currently doesn’t work for them.

Can’t say I’ve ever sung ‘from sea to shining sea’. Learning it would probably fall somewhere in line with learning about the different types of jihad on my, unfortunately ever growing, to do list.

Sing what you want. Literally no one is stopping you. No one.

Still not sure what the relevance of the ‘death to Arabs’ chant was to my point, but you seemed to want to get it in there, so, good for you I guess?

The proof is right there that he wasemployed but, I suspect after the hospital post, he became “not currently employed”

I never said he wasn't formerly employed ( January was 9 months ago) but your "suspicion" isn't enough.

But you do you.

The lyric “from sea to shining sea” is in God Bless the USA. I have sung it a few times with American military stationed over here, never once thought it meant eradicate any nonAmerican group living within those lands.

Free Palestine from the river to the sea lyric as being alleged to incite genocide (like the Lehava chant definitely does) just has me scratching my head a bit on how can the “free Palestine from the river to the sea” not mean a love for their land and wanting to defend their rights to live on it? Similar to this song, often sung on Memorial Day and Veterans Day.

If you like you can watch God Bless the USA- 2minutes.

I agree it is only a suspicion.
But keep in mind, on 14 Oct, three days before the hospital blast, he appears to still be a current employee.
https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1713126713721262271?s=20

No what could he have done to lose his job on 15th or 16th October? Just in time to not be doing it on 17th October when he did the post claiming IDF had struck the hospital and then deleting it? And why would he post that if he was no longer an employee by then. Or excuse me “an independent contractor” (much like SERCO runs NHS hospitals with the NHS logo but are not “employed by the NHS” because they are contractors)

Very curious. 🤨