What do you understand from the chant 'Free Palestine'?

[piddocktrumperiness]

Just that really. I have seen there have been many marches these last few days where people in solidarity with Palestinians chant 'Free Palestine'
Now I understand that as Free Palestine from the occupation; West Bank vs Settlers, military rule, and blockades in Gaza.
I have asked a Palestinian friend and a Lebanese neighbour what they think it means and they confirmed what I thought.

But the chant is triggering many others to believe it is anti Semitic or that it means something else and it's passing me as to what else it could mean.

See my previous post. And understand this is why the chant is nasty and antisemitic. I don't name many things or people antisemitic. I prefer to use the word with careful. However this is and I would seriously question the mentally of anyone that uses it. That is even if they say they don't understand the meaning because at a time like this I would never say a word, quote or sing a song ignorance of what it stands for. That makes you complicated and hopefully people will state getting arrested for this soon.

Hamas is disgusting and I find them utterly abhorrent. They are yet another group taking something innocent and corrupting it.

Israelis literally chant death to Arabs and Muslims. I'm sure the people on the other side of the wall could flip the saying to suit them, but the phrase I think is just a call for freedom but it's been ruined and corrupted for a terrorist group's own gain.

They don't live in Israel. Palestinian and Gaza are not part of Israel. They chose to have there own leaders. Hamas they chose in Gaza and the Palestinian authority in the West Bank. These places are like France and England. Which means they don't vote etc in each others countries. Hamas is supposed to be in charge of things like utilities, infrastructure, unemployment etc. Hamas just does a really terrible job of it because they spend all the money on weapons or steal it to buy property abroad. Israel were ask by the international community to continue helping to support in a few different ways. However only the 2 million Arab Israelis inside the border of Israel are citizens. I an not a citizen of France because it is next door. So France is not responsible for me. Plus the wall is on the west bank not Gaza. I believe you mean the blockade fence. Both were put up after terrorist attacks on buses, stabbings and bombs because nearly daily. Any country would respond in this way to stop their own civilian population getting hurt and killed.

You are right the saying has been corrupted. Therefore when protesting about this situation or to stop the bombing it is wrong to sing the chant. Other situations not about the conflict or either I or P then that would not be shameful.

Yes there are a small percentage of Israelis that are horrid and say nasty violent stuff. However these tend to be either extremist religious nuts or people that have had loved ones killed by Hamas or other Palestinians. Not only does all countries have there own version of these people but if we have say Palestinians may be traumatised from their family members getting killed, we have to also say the same thing for Israelis.

From what I've seen so far 'Free Palestine' would appear to mean kill all Israeli Jews

Horrific details of Hamas massacre emerge
mol.im/a/12666289

It's so abhorrent I can't get my head around such shockingly vile behaviour

This will attract the extremes from both sides. This is what it means to me. I want both sides to live in peace and freedom. I want a two state solution that allows Palestinians a passport, a seat in the UN, the freedom to travel, to own land,to thrive and prosper. In order to get that, they will have to lay down the guns, take the terrorists out of their politics and come to the table.

For Israel to live in peace with its neighbours it will have to go to the UN and say help us achieve this peace. It will have to hand over control of the West Bank and Gaza to a third party who will establish a nation state, hold free and fair elections and most importantly, it will have to stop the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.

Israel will have to allow the UN to enforce the peace and during the process of disarming the mad men will have to not react to the extreme provocations by bombing women and children.

Alternatively, both sides can keep doing what they’re doing and genocide will almost certainly follow.

The irony is, the people who suffered the most horrific attempt at genocide, now look like the ones attempting genocide but that could change. Israel has fought wars with its neighbours and has, usually, been successful but it’s still surrounded and outnumbered.

I support Israel’s right to exist but they have been led into a trap and I can’t see an easy way out for them. Hamas and Iran have forced them into a situation where their actions will either make them look weak or make them look brutal. You can lay the blame for that squarely at Netanyahu’s feet. He won’t look weak and he’s going down the brutal road in rapid order.

The key to this, I suspect, is America. Their unflinching support for Israel means that America has a huge amount of influence. Rishi can posture and flit between capitols but Biden is the one that got the Rafah crossing opened. The trouble is, the one card they have(withdrawal of support) cannot be played as the American people will not allow it.

The key to this, I suspect, is America. Their unflinching support for Israel means that America has a huge amount of influence. Rishi can posture and flit between capitols but Biden is the one that got the Rafah crossing opened. The trouble is, the one card they have(withdrawal of support) cannot be played as the American people will not allow it.

I agree Biden is key - and we don't know at all what is discussed behind closed doors w Netanyahu we just see the political theatre and some changes in communications from the WH - impressed that the Rafah crossing was re-opened thus far the aid has been 'modest' and hasn't resulted in Netanyahu losing face

But it does seem pretty precarious to me wrt to the health and survival of Gazans - it would only take an outbreak of cholera or meningitis to tip it over into many more fatalities

Surely the US public have a limit as to how much loss of life is too much?

Reading that is awful and the journalists saw the Hamas filmed footage themselves. It's was a new level of barbarity.

Palestinian people will not be free until Hamas terrorists are gone.

Israel uses its weapons to protect its people.

Hamas uses its people to protect its weapons.

Maybe Hamas could share some of the fuel it stole from the UN this week with the people that need it? Just a thought

Oh by the way to those screaming at Israel about the hospital attack, the reports all suggest now that missiles came from WITHIN GAZA, not only do Hamas hide behind its citizens when they misfire rockets and kill Palestinian people they blame Israel and wip up more hatred. The sooner Hamas go the better for all.

I’ve posted about this on another thread, but it’s relevant to this one.
On this morning’s Today programme (R4 2h 36m in) an extremist settler in the West Bank was interviewed and referred to his Palestinian village neighbours (not Hamas, obviously) from whom he and others had illegally stolen land, as the enemy, Nazis and beasts. His final comment was
‘I hope now we’ll be able to get rid of them (the ‘Arabs’) from the river to the sea’.
Interesting, in the context of this thread. What should we understand him to mean by that?

That he is an idiot. However he is also parroting back at them the things they say about Jews. He probably thinks he is being clever there. However it just makes him look stupid and revolting.

He is not a lone oddball. He is one of a number within Israel who are of the same opinion, (probably including many in the Israeli government, going by their recent actions, although they would never admit it). They want to clear the Arabs out of what they consider to be their land. That means the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Informative to read about the Hilltop Youth settlers and their aggressive incursions onto land designated as Palestinian land, destruction of crops, use of weapons etc.

This is such an interesting article, published in a progressive Jewish magazine a couple of years ago.

https://jewishcurrents.org/what-does-from-the-river-to-the-sea-really-mean

Yes I understand that. I was just responding to the question asked by a poster.

Like all countries Israel has a small percentage of offensive and sometimes violent nutters both in Israel and the west bankor abroad. In the case of settlers in the west bank only a nutter or extremist would like on a settlement. Therefore I am not surprised by the outburst from the one the poster mentions He was still just using sayings and words he has heard Palestinian say and reversing them back in this case though. He is probably too thick to think of anything original himself.

The poster was me! It was a rhetorical question, really.

@watcherintherye
You've had your answer - a right wing nutjob who does not represent what normal Israelis think. The settlers should be forcibly removed or made to live under Palestinian rule. As Truly says, he's reversing what is normally said about Israel and thinks he's oh so clever, but really he's a fucking moron who has sunk to the depths of their level. It's

Now that you've had your answer, will you accept it?

Palestinian flags are not Hamas flags. Hamas has its own flag that is not the flag for Palestine. Similar to how a Nazi flag was not the flag for Germany.

This is incorrect. The Palestinian Occupied Territories are de facto part of Israel as Israel is occupying them, much like Japan once occupied parts of China, or Russia occupied Poland. The POTs are not their own country - so saying it is like France to England is incorrect. They have not been formally annexed yet, but are all but annexed.

There is also a wall completely encircling Gaza…so not sure how you can claim there isn’t one. It was built by Israel to keep all Gazans imprisoned within it and so they could physically control everything and everyone that goes in an out including necessities for life and the blockade is at all levels- sea, air, and land and also funds & humanitarian that go to people in Gaza. They also control the number of jobs and decide whether cottage industries/busineses cab operate. They control all water in Gaza. All electricity.

I don’t agree that any country would do this. Many other countries have faced terrorist attacks by extremists and have managed to counter it without going to such brutally oppressive means.

Not all the reports. The reports from Israel, US, U.K., France and Canada have rubber stamped the IDF report. These are not independent reports being close allies of Israel. Reports by Channel 4, Russian, Chinese, Qatar cast doubt on this. Especially since IDF was shown to have fabricated evidence within their report in the first place (audio, & maps)

The primary issue I see is that IDF is not being entirely honest with their allies as to the full arsenal on munitions currently being used on Gaza because all these reports conclude that it wasn’t a JDAM. JDAMs are only one type of air strike Israel is using. They are also using mortar shells- guided, dumb, and the extra damaging white phosphorus and incendiary shells that are banned in urban environments where civilians are present. They are also using tank fire. The failure to examine the other artillery Israel has been lobbing into Gaza tells me these reports are incomplete. Concluding it wasn’t a JDAM doesn’t automatically mean it could not have been IDF. Trusting that IDF would not use a banned type of shell, is naive as HRW has investigated and shown repeated use of banned weapons used on Palestinian civilians.

In addition, I have worked in rockets and a failed rocket launch mid flight would have looked very different visually and left a lot of debris- there is none reported at the site not even by UNWRA officials who arrived shortly after. For those who do not know, UNWRA are United Nations, not Hamas and not Palestinians.

In addition the audio on the hit on the hospital sounds nothing like a failed rocket plummeting down on to Gaza. There is no sound of an explosion mid-air, it has the whistle sound of incoming artillery fire.

In addition, the IDF had previously sent warning shells that hit near the hospital and said the next would be a hit as part of their evacuation warning. So there is both motive and stated intention from IDF that the hospital was a target. They have also shelled other health clinics and hospitals, so it’s clearly not a red line for them. There is the case of a member if the IDF digital spokesteam taking credit for the strike and then deleting it claiming they were repeating a Reuters report- when Reuters has said no such report existed.

In addition, the photos, craters and fire are similar to an incendiary shell not a JDAM. Hamas has used incendiary shells BUT a misfire wouldn’t have caused the damage or the fire. The crater is a direct hit crater and the incendiary explosion then ripped through the people sheltering in the car park and courtyard next to it. Incendiary shells are designed to spew conflagrations after impact causing widespread fire damage. This is consistent to what happened to the innocents who were killed and the burned out cars.

I don’t think it is a closed matter at all.

Depends on the context…

At the moment, given Israel’s current slaughter and starving of civilians in Gaza, I think it means stop bombing Gaza, stop invading and occupying Gaza (sorry ‘settling’ in other people’s houses), and give back the occupied territories.

Most people do not believe it to call for the destruction of Israel but obviously some people do currently mean that. In more peaceful times (ha!) it did mean that.

Something I do think is so important though is that the West stays out of this. The Middle East is shit, it’s always been shit, Europe and America are actually pretty lovely. Let’s not start picking sides and prancing around the streets protesting about the Middle East. This is not a European problem, we have quite enough of our own troubles with Putin trying to start WW3. Palestine/Israel is a tragedy but not our tragedy.

Most people do not believe it to call for the destruction of Israel
100% this is the case not just amongst foreign activists, but among the Palestinians

A Dec 2020 survey http://pcpsr.org/en/node/829 of just over 1,000 Palestinians found that when Palestinians were asked their top priorities no one even mentioned overthrowing the state of Israel. All responses recognised Israel’s right to exist:

“45% believe that the first most vital Palestinian goal should be to end Israeli occupation in the areas occupied in 1967 and build a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. By contrast, 29% believe the first most vital goal should be to obtain the right of return of refugees to their 1948 towns and villages, 13% believe that the first and most vital goal should be to build a pious or moral individual and a religious society, one that applies all Islamic teachings and an identical percentage (13%) believes it should be to establish a democratic political system that respects freedoms and rights of Palestinians.”

Given this the “Free Palestine” chant most probably represents freedom from occupation to form a sovereign state in a two state solution with Israel.

As to how to obtain these objectives….
”The most preferred way out of the current status quo is “reaching a peace agreement with Israel” according to 38% of the public while 29% prefer waging “an armed struggle against the Israeli occupation.” 10% prefer “waging a non-violent resistance” and 19% prefer to keep the status quo.”

This means that 71% of Palestinians do not support any kind of armed struggle or violent resistence, terrorist or otherwise.

In addition,
”If legislative elections are held today [Dec 2020], 38% expect Fatah to win; 25% expect Hamas to win; 23% expect third parties and new lists that are unknown today to win.”

This means that a supra-majority of the Palestinians surveyed would not vote for Hamas and Hamas has a 75% chance of losing the elections

But this is only if elections were to be done fairly and freely, the survey depressingly found that 52% say if elections are held today under current conditions, they will not be fair and free; so there is a widespread fear that any election would be rigged, perhaps this is how Hamas got to power in the first place?

There is the case of a member if the IDF digital spokesteam taking credit for the strike and then deleting it

He's not an IDF spokesman but worked for Netanyahu's digital team. The official IDF spokesman has been doing it for years, I recognised him straightaway and the Govt spokesman is Eylon Levy.

He sounds like a bit of a twat, tbh.

https://jewishinsider.com/2023/10/hananya-naftali-spokesman-israeli-government-war/

Most people do not believe it to call for the destruction of Israel but obviously some people do currently mean that. In more peaceful times (ha!) it did mean that.

In all the years I've been watching this situation, it's the first time I've ever seen its meaning disputed tbh, generally it was always taken to have the grimmer meaning. It would be nice to think the meaning has changed but I really don't believe it has for plenty of those who chant it.

‘From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free‘ is a call to eradicate all Jews. From the river Jordan all the way to the Mediterranean Sea.

That’s what it means.

Now if that’s not what people actually mean when they chant it, then they’re either wilfully ignorant, or just dangerously ignorant.

I just don’t understand why people would chant something that has such awful connotations, knowing it has such awful connotations.

If that’s not what you mean, chant something else.
If people are genuinely chanting not for the eradication of all Jewish people, but for peace, maybe they should start using a more peaceful chant?

How about Peace for Palestine?

Nice bit of alliteration, would flow nicely off the tongue, and importantly couldn’t be mistaken for a call to eradicate an entire people off the face of the earth.