What do you understand from the chant 'Free Palestine'?

[piddocktrumperiness]

Just that really. I have seen there have been many marches these last few days where people in solidarity with Palestinians chant 'Free Palestine'
Now I understand that as Free Palestine from the occupation; West Bank vs Settlers, military rule, and blockades in Gaza.
I have asked a Palestinian friend and a Lebanese neighbour what they think it means and they confirmed what I thought.

But the chant is triggering many others to believe it is anti Semitic or that it means something else and it's passing me as to what else it could mean.

I feel like this is really disingenuous. Two weeks ago, Hamas, government of Gaza, committed the worst acts of civilian terrorism I have ever seen in my life. They burned babies, they took go pro videos gloating and celebrating and they chanted Allahu Akbar and called for death to Jews.

Now people are joining parades with people, carrying the flags of this government, redefining this terrorism as "resistance", and standing shoulder to shoulder with the same calls of Allahu Akbar and calls for death to Jews.

It might be SOME people don't support Hamas' actions or wishes.

It might be MOST people don't.

But whilst they're all in one big parade it's hard for people to tell.

For this exact reason, I would not walk around right now with an Israeli flag. Not because I don't support Israel or the hostages, but because I wouldn't want anyone in Gaza or around the world to for a moment think I supported their babies dying.

Surely that's reasonable?

I mean, if we travelled back to WWII would people be flying the German flag and saying "Oh but we don't support the Nazis, just the German people?".

It feels a bit like total insensitive bollocks.

@Ididivfama
I appreciate that you don't think it's true, but it is.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CysbbWOsPKo/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

This is, according to some of the comments, from 2019 rather than from now. So before this current war began. That level of hatred is pretty intense. They want to kill Jews in the UK so not sure why you won't believe they want to get rid of Jews from the middle east. This is obviously just a few people in this video but there are plenty more videos out there.

It's scary to be Jewish. My kids have guards outside school. The past couple of weeks they've also had police outside. My kids are primary school aged and younger yet still not safe

@LemonyTicket did you mean to quote me or @saffronsoup ? I fully agree with you. Although as a sidenote, I also wouldn't fly the Israeli flag out of fear of being attacked.

@LemonyTicket thanks for keeping up representation of what all this means for Jews. You must be exhausted with all the threads.

Classic one here:

I decided to ask someone this question on Twitter. He had tweeted "they are trying to reframe 'Free Palestine' as racist" (unsure who 'they' are), but I asked him:

"Can you actually tell me in meaningful terms what you want Israel to actually do? Given then Palestinians are oppressed by their own government and have repeatedly refused to accept any peace process?"

His reply:

"Stay out of things you are clearly uninformed about. Israel is to blame for all this. So stop lying".

Which not only is NOT an answer of any sort, but it is also him - Darryl, from rural England, who's profile says he "hates the Torys" and "fights for human rights", telling me, who's an Iraqi Jew with a masters in middle eastern history to "stay out of things I am uninformed about". 👀😆

Sigh.

The British left need an intervention!

They're coming coming off absolutely crackers now

OK let's take two scenarios

A) I stand in Trafalgar Square with an Israeli flag - my views are that I don't support the Israeli Government's actions in Gaza but I am sympathising with Israel against the recent terrorist attack. But no one can see these views they can just see a flag.

B) I stand in Trafalgar Square with a Palestinian flag - my views are that I condemn the recent terrorist attack against Israel but I am sympathising with the Palestinian people against the bombings by the Israeli military attack. But no one can see these views they can just see a flag.

Now in which scenario am I most likely to be physically attacked?

Sorry yes, I didn't mean YOU were being disingenuous, I just meant people saying this were.

Obviously if I went parading with an Israeli flag people wouldn't think I was supporting Israeli citizens and hostages; they would think I was supporting the bombs being fired at Gaza.

I think carrying flags right now is very twattish!

Scenario A obviously.

But I wouldn't do either!

Some pro Pakestinisn protesters threatened to behead an Iranian dissident who is one of the protesters camping outside the Iranian embassy in London against the Iranian regime because they had an Israeli flag. So we have people who have had to flee their own country being terrorised because they are protesting against the regime that terrorised them in the first place.

@LemonyTicket

"I think carrying flags right now is very twattish!"

+++

Completely agree and just demonstrates division.

That's what happens when an incredibly naive society thinks that it can take in refugees and participants from every conflict on Earth while actually continuing to be a refuge of any kind. Iran, ironically, would never be that dim.

No, actually. When I look at Israel, I see a modern liberal democracy with a big tech sector and an essential defensive mitilary. When I look at Gaza, I see a failed state that has power and water thanks to the charitable goodwill of it's more successful neighbour. Palestine/Hamas have channelled billions of aid money into weapons in the hope that they can eliminate all Jews.

I don't detect any desire from Palestinians to live under a government that's actually free as someone living in the UK would understand it.

An authoritarian regime will do nicely, as long as it's Islamic. Nobody has been protesting Hamas' rule for the last 16 years. I understand that anyone living in Gaza who protests against Hamas tends to fall from a tall building, but there have been no rallies in Trafalgar Square about it.

To be clear - if an authoritarian Islamic regime is acceptable to the Palestinians, it would be white colonialism to prevent it. But we do need to be clear what a "Free Palestine" looks like to the people in the Middle East who yearn for it: not free government, nor free of opression, but free of Jews.

My DH is somewhat captured by the Left, and apparently they have been gleefully talking about the BRICS countries and the BRICS currency, with Iran and some other African nations joining, and how they are going to form the brave new world. I don't know what these people think their lives will be like when world is run by authoritarian regimes and one of the wealthiest regimes is an Islamist fundamentalist state, but all that matters is the collapse of the dollar as the global currency. In the unlikely event that a group of countries who historically hate each other, scattered with some dictatorships and bankrolled by an Islamist regime will be anything but a disaster for them and their families, as well as the rest of us is laughably naive. In itself its a form of racism to assume all Black and Brown people will get along fine and all that is holding them back is their more intelligent colonial White masters.

@Angrycat2768

Yes I've seen that belief. I suspect that they may be right unfortunately. The BRICS alliance isn't intended to be something like the UN, or NATO, where everyone is expected to sign up to common, actually western, values which are not remotely universal and never were. That disparate band probably can cooperate with each other on trade, currency and military alliances against the West as a common enemy, while taking radically different approaches to internal governance.

I'm not sure how leftists like your DH think the collapse of the American empire and replacement by the BRICS will go for western Europe. I'd be very interested to know. My guess is they would simply see the collapse of the American unipolar world as the end of one evil empire and an opportunity for the left in the vacuum thereafter.

One of the reasons the west in my view does deserve to end (albeit I'm extremely unhappy about it) is that it managed the extraordinary feat of uniting against it countries that, as you say, have plenty of reasons to hate each other.

Interestingly, I was reading that the only reason Gaza had an election in 2006 is because the Americans insisted on it. It was part of the project of bringing liberal democracy to everywhere on the globe. Ariel Sharon opposed it because he was concerned Hamas would be voted into power and, unlike the idiotic Americans, he understood what the consequences of that would be. A civilization just can't display this level of wilful naivety and expect to live.

I missed my stop this morning reading this, genuinely very interesting to me. I think because I struggle to organise my own thoughts and feelings without being overcome by emotion at the horror.
I think that the reason this has had more of an impact in the UK than say genocide in Africa is because of the fear of it being the spark for a much larger war, and perhaps to a lesser extent because of the historical role the UK has played in this complex situation.
Would it be derailing to this thread to ask: what next? What, realistically, can or should be done, and by whom, to try to limit the the devastation that comes next?

That disparate band probably can cooperate with each other on trade, currency and military alliances against the West as a common enemy, while taking radically different approaches to internal governance.

I agree with you but once the West is weakened there is no common enemy to hold them together. China is incredibly economically expansionist, especially into Africa, which will antagonise South Africa. India and Russia are fearful of an overly powerful China too, and remember the British Empire in India started as a trading ' relationship' and India has a very long memory on that. I suspect thst in the collapse of the West, it is more likely the gap will be filled by the Right.
I'm not sure what my DH thinks because we don't talk about it. It's the only way to keep the peace! He knows I disagree with his views though!
Agree also about wilful naivete. Trying to impose Western democracy is naive in the extreme. Some places just dont want it. Just as naive as wishing that if only people weren't oppressed they would all live simple lives unburdened by their colonial overlords, presumably all living off the land and bartering for goods and services because no countries/tribes ever went to war or conquered anyehere ever until the Europeans started doing it of course!

That's very true. Once the American empire is finished the BRICS will have to sort out their pecking order and I don't expect it to be pretty!

I am genuinely curious as to what "Free Palestine" actually means and what does it actually look like.

So we could start with free from occupation or control.
On which point Israel should not have any settlements or presence in the West Bank because it is a separate country. It would be like France unilaterally grabbing bits of Belgium and building French towns in Belgium. This is clearly against international law. However when we look at Gaza there are no Israeli settlements or presence in Gaza. In fact Israel wants absolutely nothing to do with Gaza (along with the Egyptians for that matter).

Free from attack
Well I think both sides want this, except one side starts an attack and the other retaliates. With innocent civilians being killed on both sides.

Freedom of movement
Well no country is obliged to let anyone into their country if they don't want to.

Freedom from blockade
Again Israel is entitled to close its land borders with Gaza or the West Bank if it so chooses. Indeed Egypt closed or heavily restricted its borders with Gaza since 2012 and many other countries have closed borders.
The sea blockade is a different matter and whilst inspections of cargo vessels suspected of smuggling weapons is permitted the complete blockade is not.

Or does Free Palestine mean that the whole of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank is freed from Israeli Gov control and comes under Palestinian control.
In which case where do the Israelis go?

Israeli flag for sure

On which point Israel should not have any settlements or presence in the West Bank because it is a separate country. It would be like France unilaterally grabbing bits of Belgium and building French towns in Belgium. This is clearly against international law.

This is very much seeing things as you feel they ought to be seen, rather than as they are. The west bank area has never been a country in its own right, like Belgium has been for centuries. In fact it's never been part of any country in the modern sense, ever.

I accept that if your desired outcome is a Palestinian state in the west bank area, it's easier for your head to get there if you assume that we're starting from a place where it's "occupied" as if the French had occupied Belgium. But that's in your head. It's simply not correct.

If you want to found a Palestinian state in the west bank, you have start with the truth.

Free palestine and from the river to the sea are code for "kill all the jews". Used by protesters to claim that there is no ethical, moral or humanitarian argument for zionism is historical revisionism and antisemitism. And there is no such thing as a pro-palestine activist...only anti-israel as we see from these people daily at the moment. They don't tend to believe in peace for both sides and only stand up for the rights of one group. Therefore are terribly bias and won't listen or look at media or social media that doesn't suit their own agenda. Hence why we are currently having fake news stories posted all the time. Then the real story comes out and yet again they are wrong etc......

Mush like Jihad having the double been done of struggle and the meaning when Islamic extremes say it. So technically does the chant. It could be said as using a more Quran based verse. However when Hamas or supports say it just like Jihad it has a different meaning. Palestinian extremist leaders have said over the years that the Muslims must rise up and retake Israel. That they will chase out the Jews from the river to the sea. If they resist then they will be taken to the sea, there heads will be cut off. Then thier babies flung into the see. Therefore the chant is a well known death chant asking for the destruction of Israel and the death of Jews.

Maybe it means to literally take the walls which are caging them in down. And to give them the same rights as the Israelis in the country.

I'm astounded that people are having such a tough time being OK with other people having basic rights. The only difference between us and them is that they happened to be born in their country and we in ours.