What do you understand from the chant 'Free Palestine'?

[piddocktrumperiness]

Just that really. I have seen there have been many marches these last few days where people in solidarity with Palestinians chant 'Free Palestine'
Now I understand that as Free Palestine from the occupation; West Bank vs Settlers, military rule, and blockades in Gaza.
I have asked a Palestinian friend and a Lebanese neighbour what they think it means and they confirmed what I thought.

But the chant is triggering many others to believe it is anti Semitic or that it means something else and it's passing me as to what else it could mean.

I think your second paragraph is optimistically naive.

This is my view of the situation too.

Here's a simple thought experiment.

Following the impact of the BLM movement, if black people told you that a song being sung by many other ethnic groups was grossly offensive, would you continue to sing it? In public? At marches attended by some people who call for their destruction? Would you tell them they're being over-dramatic and the words weren't racist? Especially just after c1200 of them were brutally massacred and c200 were taken as hostages by, say, white supremacists?

Thought not. So don't do it to Jews. Or you're antisemitic.

I think most people chanting ‘Free Palestine’ mean that they want one state, comprised of what is now Israel and the Palestinian Territories, within which Palestinians are free to move around and live wherever they want. They also want Palestinians in other countries to have a right of return.

The problem is that this would mean there was no longer a Jewish majority in Israel - which would mean the end of the state of Israel. There would be around 10 million Palestinians to 6 million Jews. And a lot of pro-Palestine people believe that many Jews would emigrate (a scary number believe that Israeli Jews are all actually Polish and will just ‘go back to Poland’), increasing the Palestinian majority.

The events of 7 October show why the Jewish Israeli population believes they would not be safe in a Palestinian majority country.

It depends on how violent the crowd around me are likely to get of course. But then I oppose identity politics. I absolutely disagree that any group gets to decide what is or is not whatever -ism is relevant today. Only societies descending into lunatic asylums would accept such a bizarre concept.

Again, ironically this exact ideology is why support for Israel is lower the younger the generation. They're being taught this dogma throughout their education. What the pro-Israel side don't seem to understand is that the outcome you're observing now - that this becomes a victimhood competition - is one the Jews were always going to lose, because they're designated a white settler colonialist society and therefore are classified as the Oppressor.

This is almost word for word what the ' free Palestine from the River to the sea ' people are doing. They have reduced a very complicated situation to one of identity politics- if you are on the Left you just want to free Palestine, and any actions done by the 'oppressed'is excused because Israel is automatically the ' oppressor'. Do the 'Young' not know or care about the oppression of the Palestinian people by Hamas? Their use of women and children as Human Shields? That anyone giving aid to Palestine gives it to Israel to distribute because they know Hamas will syphon it off for themselves? The underground tunnels and luxury villas Hamas live in ( built with aid money) while they leave Palestinians to starve? Do they justify Hamas going into Israel snd murdering young people like them?

There are 32 ongoing conflicts in the world right now, ranging from drug wars, terrorist insurgencies, ethnic conflicts, and civil wars.

The world stood and watched the Rwandan genocide and did absolutely nothing.

The current ethnic cleansing of the Amhara (also a Semetic people) from Ethiopia.

Why does no one ever care about any of the other wars / genocides?

@Angrycat2768

They mostly don't know. But they also don't particularly want to know. They would say that however nasty Hamas is the Palestinians don't deserve to be ethnically cleansed/genocided. They generally believe that Hamas can't really help themselves, that they're just reacting instinctively to oppression. It's an old dogma of the left, Martin Luther King called riots 'the language of the oppressed'. It's terribly convenient if you're so busy 'being kind' all the time that you're desperate for a bit of a riot, even vicariously.

I really hope that as well as asking your Arabic chums for an explanation, you have a chat with them about how their allegiance to their God overrides their responsibilities as British residents/ citizens. You might find King and country sit far, far below Allah. Think about how that might translate when race/ religious war erupts in this country. See last week’s Commissioner’s comments re: mass immigration and poor integration. The call is an incitement to violence. Did you see the nice chap in Whitehall waving his black and white Isis flag at the weekend? Death to infidels?

Douglas Hodge made an important point about how people who normally bleat in about micro-aggressions and words being actual violence, are strangely silent about the slaughter of 1,300 Jews in an unprovoked attack by Hamas.

Left wing dogma

“Remove the blockade on Gaza”.

we’ve seen what happens when the Israeli border with Gaza is breached- they killed every person they could find is the most disgusting, inhumane atrocities in living memory.

so that’s a “no” for starters.

Hopefully they mean 'free 'palestians' from hammas'

I'm in my 60s and it's only recently that I've seen anyone suggesting that it means anything other than removing the Jews.

@Teentaxidriver Bit presumptious and reductive of you. Did I say they were muslim?

But thank you for your pre judgments.

And yes we all here want Hamas to F Off. Please don't assume that Hamas are the only ones oppressing the Palestinians. And please don't assume that all Palestinians are terrorists. You're ridiculous to think that.

This is why dialogue is important. If most Palestinians are telling you that the chant means freedom from oppression, by Netanyahu's politics, and no one is listening- that all is being heard is that they want to obliterate every Jew, how on earth can they all move forward? It's ridiculous.
I've just given you a first hand account of an actual Palestinian, who categorically told me what the chant means to them, that peace can only happen if occupation ends, and that she wants peace for all, and yet you are telling me she is lying.

Remember, Hamas are in Gaza. Not the West Bank. Palestinians in the West Bank and East jerusalem, regardless of creed, for that matter are oppressed on a daily basis.

I don't believe it is believed unanimously.
Would 'End the Occupation' do it then?

Most of these things are ambiguous - that’s the problem.

Does that mean ’end the occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza?’

Or does the person consider all of Israel to be occupied Palestinian land and is thus calling for Israel to be abolished?

Why won't the rest of the Arab world take Palestinian refugees at least women and children

I don’t think people are telling you she is lying - just that you have to consider the outcome of a policy proposal as well as the intent.

Most people saying ‘Free Palestine’ mean that they want one state, including the areas that are now Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, within which Palestinians can move freely, live wherever they want, and return to the locations of their ancestral villages - including Palestinian refugees and their descendants currently living in other countries.

On the surface, this sounds great - it would mean freedom for Palestinians, and an end to the occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza.

BUT it would make Jews a minority - 6 million against around 10 million Palestinians. There would undoubtedly be mass violence against the Jewish population by radicalised sections of the Palestinian population who believe that the Jews can be convinced - or forced - to leave. Many Jews, particularly the 60% whose ancestors were expelled from Arab countries after 1948, have nowhere else to go - there would be nowhere left that was safe for them.

The Israeli Jewish population will never willingly agree to this - even if all their Western allies abandon them. They will fight to the end. It would almost certainly lead to a lengthy Lebanese style civil war with horrific casualties on both sides.

TL;DR - calling for a Free Palestine is one thing, but it’s a bit naive when you have no idea how to achieve it while keeping the Jewish population safe.

Are you unaware that one of the reasons why the Arabs refused every proposal to give the Jews their own state is that they believe that lands conquered by Islam cannot voluntarily be given to non-muslims. Therefore the state of Israel itself is occupying their land?

You'll have trouble finding a slogan that will be understood in the same way by all of the weird bedfellows of a pro-Palestinian march. You could propose something like 'Peace' or something equally nice, and see how that goes down with the people who actually organize these marches. Actually 'Human Rights Now!' would be a great one to spark some interesting discussions. The useful idiots might learn something from that.

Pollyputthekettleon, I agree with the ignorance and naivety of many of the liberal left. The most astonishing banners I've seen over the last couple of weeks are 'Queers for Palestine' and 'LGBT+ supports Palestine'.

Free as in Judenfrei.

The Jews are the only minority on the planet who are forced to accept when others tell them what’s Jew-hatred and what isn’t.

I don't understand how it is a call to Jihad. You might have a small number of nutters chanting it as a trojan horse, but for the vast majority it is what it is.

Wanting Palestinians to have better lives and better treatment from Israel is not the same as supporting Hamas. Unfortunately, the marches and chanting are entirely in response to Hamas breaking a cease fire

posted too soon...

breaking a cease fire and committing large scale atrocities.

Hamas doesn't want to "free Palestine". It wants to eradicate Israel and by extension the jews.

People chanting "free Palestine" are either mistaking Hamas for Nelson Mandela (when they are more like Isis) or know exactly what Hamas stand for and are fine with it.

If the freedom was the issue, they would've accepted the two state solution, build a state and aim to peace and prosperity