To think it’s turning into genocide in real time part 2

[Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73]

First thread here but it’s full
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4918938-to-think-its-turning-into-genocide-in-real-time?page=1

Medical Aid to Palestine posted this thread on facebook describing the scenes in Gaza as being like the last days of humanity with one of their staff members having to search through piles of bodies to find his 13 year old niece https://www.facebook.com/100064712829372/posts/pfbid028yxpzimtA3apA6CSs8dEhJBd16rYUQR6QjFidEpwRCZzPVYoeJezX8nDrtZP2UZRl/?app=fbl

The main stream press aren’t really addressing the horror of what is happening (bar maybe Channel 4 news and Al Jazeera) - it’s a sanitised version.

As I said in the original thread, there has been absolute horror on both sides but the Israeli government are inflicting collective punishment on the people of Gaza, which is a war crime under international law.

I still feel we are watching genocide in real time.

I can't watch the video. It's too much. I remember watching one some years ago of other men who were forced to walk naked down the streets. At that time Israel blamed them saying they only asked them to remove their tops but instead they stripped themselves naked for attention. How disgusting. I feel sick.

It's a very common method used by the IDF to torture Palestinians.

Israel are known for this. Just no one has been brave enough to speak out. Its taken the last few weeks for people to speak out. It's taken kids being killed in their 100s and thousands for people to speak out.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy-10wCo8Ts/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

They literally tell everyone what they are doing and we are still blind to it. I don't know whether to laugh or cry

No proof of course that a Hamas commander was there or / and killed.
It hasn’t been confirmed anywhere else.
Would like to see independent verification.

Without this it’s just Israel looking for justification to bomb their way south.

This is confirmed in the ….Times of Israel paper

The rest of the story in the Times of Israel.

Yes this was October 12th.
I wasn’t going to post the video referred to …..it’s too upsetting.

This is, however, confirmed proof by an Israeli paper that this goes on………it’s not a new thing..

It happens a lot guys. Not just these incidents.

No certainly not new, this has been happening for years. Today a man was shot in the back of his head whilst he was picking olives (on his land) with his wife and young children. Less than 3% of these attacks, which include murder of adults and children, sodomy, sexual assaults on women, storming of homes etc go before the court. The double standard parallel legal system for Palestinians is designed to always make them the perpetrator. And people then wonder why the Palestinians don't want to accept a 'solution' - it was never intended to be fair and equal. 'A good Arab is a dead Arab'.

No proof of course that a Hamas commander was there or / and killed.

It hasn’t been confirmed anywhere else.

Would like to see independent verification.

Without this it’s just Israel looking for justification to bomb their way south.

I don't disagree with you. It seems any time they bomb densely populated civilians areas the excuse is there might have been a Hamas guy there.

There's no doubt Hamas have build tunnels and have their own infrastructure. There is no doubt Hamas are a terrorist organisation.
I do find myself wondering what the IDF think Hamas could be that wouldn't be putting civilians at risk given the whole Gaza strip is very densely populated. The IDF seem to think the answer to everything is "sorry, not sorry, but Hamas are really to blame for the deaths caused by our bombs in densely populated areas. Something something. Human shields" and then later on they'll drop some bombs in areas they've told civilians to move to.

The camp they hit, iirc, was in the northern area that they've said is an exclusion zone. I would imagine the justification is "we told you to move south so if you're there then you're fair game to murder".

@Silence1 "here is a leaked document showing Israel's plan to move all the Palestinians to the Sinai and empty Gaza with American and Western funding"

So where do you think that the Gazans could go while Gaza is being rebuilt?

You complain about the bombing, but then complain about any idea to move them to safety? What exactly do you want?

@LolaSmiles Just have a look at the size of the crater that was created by the bomb that was dropped. It's huge. That's because it collapsed an entire tunnel network.

We know Hamas hides behind its civilians, and has done so for years.

Some people on this thread don't know the rules of war ie;

Harming, killing, and destroying civilian lives and structures does not necessarily constitute a war crime. An army is allowed to attack military targets and seek military objectives even with the knowledge that civilians are likely to be harmed, but it can only do so if the military objective can only be achieved by such an attack. In such a case, civilian casualties are collateral damage, incidental to the military objective sought. Where such damage and injury to non-combatants is likely to occur, a proportional response must be sought that weighs the importance of the military objective vis-à-vis possible civilian casualties.

My grandfather conducted bombing raids over Germany in WW2. They were given targets to bomb such as munitions factories, bridges, railway stations, in order to destroy the infrastructure and thwart the German War Machine.
After the bombing they had to circle over the target and take photos to show that they had hit what they were supposed to hit.
Unfortunately civilians must have been killed in these raids.

Are you saying that this wasn't the right thing to do?

@CosimoPiovasco "This is confirmed in the ….Times of Israel paper"

No it is not confirmed at all.

Please note the use of the word allegedly and stop spreading misinformation.

CosimoPiovasco · Yesterday 20:14

The rest of the story in the Times of Israel.

Well, it says that the commander has been removed from his post, so nothing to worry about.

mydiaryisfull

My grandfather conducted bombing raids over Germany in WW2. They were given targets to bomb such as munitions factories, bridges, railway stations, in order to destroy the infrastructure and thwart the German War Machine.

Could you just confirm which dams, tank factories and airfields are being bombed in Gaza?

You do know that carpet bombing was carried out in WW II because they didn't have any guided missiles and a large proportion of the German population was involved in arms and associated manufacturing, don't you?

It’s being widely reported that it was actually a sinkhole, not a network of tunnels.

You do realise that technology has moved on significantly since your dGF was in the Second World War, right?

tho those seeking to justify this horrific use of carpet bombing against Palestinian civilians, answer me one question.

If a wanted Hamas operative were sitting in a school/hospital in Israel, crowded with ordinary Israeli civilians, would the government’s current strategy still apply? Would it carpet bomb the shit out of the place and pass off the deaths of innocent Israelis as collateral damage?

what the whole world is watching here is the bloodthirsty Israeli government ruthlessly annihilate the very existence of Palestine.

WriterHK

We also don't know what kind of munition they used, in this case. The Israelis have said that they have used 1 ton bunker busters, which penetrate the ground significantly and are enormously destructive.

Just have a look at the size of the crater that was created by the bomb that was dropped. It's huge. That's because it collapsed an entire tunnel network.

We know Hamas hides behind its civilians, and has done so for years

Very few people dispute that Hamas have tunnels.Gaza is very densely populated too. It doesn't make it acceptable to flatten areas known to be densely populated with civilians.

I have absolutely no time for terrorists at all.
I also have no time for the IDF and it's supporters telling civilians to move in such a densely populated area, when they've been collectively punishing with lack of food and water. Israel KNOWS this isn't possible for many civilians, but thinks that "we warned you to move" makes their actions ok. Then they bomb the south anyway after telling civilians to go there. And they cut communications making it impossible for ambulances and families to find loved ones, and conveniently stops too much reporting when it suits.

A pp raises a very good question:

If a wanted Hamas operative were sitting in a school/hospital in Israel, crowded with ordinary Israeli civilians, would the government’s current strategy still apply? Would it carpet bomb the shit out of the place and pass off the deaths of innocent Israelis as collateral damage?
I think we know the answer to that though. Some civilian lives are worth more than others to the IDF and their supporters.

@WriterHK It’s being widely reported that it was actually a sinkhole, not a network of tunnels.

By whom? And convenient that a sinkhole suddenly appeared after a bombing raid?
Sinkholes are rare in sandstone, which makes up the Geology of that area.
If it is indeed a sinkhole, then the most probable cause is the degradation of the subterranean aquifers by removing water at a speed that exceeds replenishment.

You do realise that technology has moved on significantly since your dGF was in the Second World War, right?

Technology may have moved on but the same principles of warfare apply.

those seeking to justify this horrific use of carpet bombing against Palestinian civilians, answer me one question.

The use of the phrase 'carpet bombing' is ill-informed.

'Carpet bombing', is done in a progressive manner to inflict damage in every part of a selected area of land. It is usually achieved by dropping many unguided bombs. It has no place in modern warfare as it is wasteful, inaccurate and creates huge unnecessary civilian casualties, There is no military advantage to be gained by killing vast numbers of civilians.

The IDF is using targeted strikes based on intelligence.

If a wanted Hamas operative were sitting in a school/hospital in Israel, crowded with ordinary Israeli civilians, would the government’s current strategy still apply? Would it carpet bomb the shit out of the place and pass off the deaths of innocent Israelis as collateral damage?

I am not going to get into a discussion about improbables.

what the whole world is watching here is the bloodthirsty Israeli government ruthlessly annihilate the very existence of Palestine."

Traditionally, people have called argument "any attempt that uses logic to incite a person to take action or to change an opinion or belief." Persuasion is considered to be the same call to action or to change an opinion or belief; but persuasion is a call to action that is based on appealing to emotion and feeling.

I will therefore not get into discussions on topics, with those using inflammatory, emotive rhetoric to bolster their arguments.

I am not going to get into a discussion about improbables
The poster raised a good post about ethics in war.

If the sorts of attacks are morally justifiable because there's some Hamas individuals within densely populated areas of Gaza and it's just too bad that thousands of civilians have been killed, not ideal but that's war, but Hamas caused it by being around civilians, then it's reasonable to test the claimed standpoint when the nature of civilians changes.

If the answer changes depending on who the civilians are who'll be bombed, that's relevant. That's getting worryingly into some innocent civilians being worth more than others.

I'm pretty sure my Great Grandad, who was in the RAF and made blind in WW2, wasn't saying things like:

'We are going to make Germany into a car park'

'We are dropping hundreds of tons of bombs on Germany. Our focus is on destruction, not accuracy'

'Now there is only one goal: Nakba. A Nakba in Germany that will dwarf the Nakba of 1948'

This is the rhetoric coming from Israeli politicians if you swap the word Germany for Gaza in those sentences.

Even if the rules of war say 'Civilians can and will be harmed in the course of targeting military infrastructure' doesn't mean it's okay FFS. I heard Netanyahu talk about moral clarity? He has as much moral clarity as the Hamas terrorists who broke through that fence and slaughtered people at that music festival. Moral clarity would mean that Israel wouldn't want to turn Gaza into a car park - I'm not convinced at all, that the only way they could achieve their supposed mission 'to wipe out Hamas' (25k fighters at best) was to flatten Gaza and ruin it. So a ground invasion of 25k Israeli specialist soldiers who are better trained, with better weapons and with advanced intelligence was rejected over bombing the crap out of an entire country. It's bullshit and Israel apologists are scrabbling to justify it. Why?

Diary is in too deep, they won't be able to accept they are wrong now even if another 100 people came to tell them they are wrong.

Yep, @LolaSmiles gets it!