Channel 4 News report into IDF evidence for Gaza hospital bombing

[Mammillaria]

This was released yesterday but doesn't seem to have been given much coverage, possibly because it's not been able to draw any conclusions.

x.com/Channel4News/status/1715437877604049094?s=20

I had found the evidence presented by the IDF to be fairly convincing, so I found this an unsettling watch (even though it does not prove that they were responsible).

I expect I shall get criticism from those who have claimed from the start that the IDF are liars, and more criticism from those who see posting this as siding with the terrorist narrative.

I'm still struggling to fully comprehend the enormity and nuances of this conflict.

It’s a bit pointless speculating at this stage. There’s some evidence to suggest the Israelis are responsible so anti-Israelis will consider that proof, there’s some evidence to suggest that it was Hamas to pro-Israelis will consider that proof.

I think it will be a while before there can be an actual investigation and we can claim to know either way.

Is it? Channel 4 did an investigation that showed it was likely Israel. In the OP?

More recent reporting from US, Canadian and French security services found it was unlikely to have been the IDF so I'm not sure what Ch4 were playing at there.

Their fight is for Palestinian liberation.

How do you think they invisage this liberation looking? Do you think it includes peaceful co-existence with Israel?

People can write on the thread "please stop" but we don't have to stop supporting Israel, just as we let 100,000 mark in favour of Palestine (although they are not allowed to call for Jihad on London streets as that presumably is calling for war and death of jews so I hope they did not go that far)

Ah, I see @MNHQ posting antisemitic conspiracy theories- fine, have at it and unlikely to be deleted, post an anti conspiracy theorist joke on Mumsnet, absolutely not on. Right, got it.

Rishi Sunak has announced that our security services have reviewed the evidence and concluded its most likely to have been a rocket or part of a rocket fired from within Gaza, ie: not Israel.

It’s a shame that the unquestioned repetition of lies from Hamas whipped up a wave of blood lust against Jewish people around the world, isn’t it?

Antisemitism and peace talks were cancelled

The media jumped for a story from a terrorist organisation

Is there actually that much conflation going on in the Uk between Israel and Jews? Where I live not a single person that I have spoken to about this, including lots of people at marches has even mentioned religion. Everything I read in my country is focused on Israel and Gaza/Palestinians. Nobody seems to care what religion people are. They care about people dying, they care about war crimes, they care a lot about oppression and occupation but what book someone chooses to follow just isn't an issue. I find it really jarring when I read on Mumsnet that people are obsessed with what religion everyone is, some people to the exclusion of everything else. Is that a reflection of real life in the UK or is it just a mumsnet thing? People here see this as a conflict about land, a conflict about occupation, probably because that's something we have lots of experience with. Is it framed more as a religious war in the UK?

These are genuine questions because like I said it's framed so differently here. I'm not on twitter or anything like that and don't read UK media so really the only UK voices I hear are on mumsnet.

Antisemites mostly don't care if you're religious or not. It's about ethnicity, not religion.

@Gruntsandgroans i haven’t seen hundreds of thousands of people (mostly Muslim) on the streets of London protesting the murder and oppression of Uighur Muslims in China (which has been described as an attempted genocide), I haven’t seen them yelling “fuck the chinese” and Chinese people have not had to close their schools and places of worship for safety, so yes, this is very much about religion. That’s not to say Israel can’t be criticised, but if it’s the only place you’re criticising then you might want to consider you’re motivated at least as much by anti semitism as you are by humanitarian concerns.

Ah OK. Is that why people on mumsnet say Arabs too when talking about it rather than Palestinians? That's something I hadn't really seen prior to mumsnet either. It's seen as 2 ethnicities against each other rather than 2 territories like it is here?

OK. Thanks.

@Gruntsandgroans To explain it from my own personal experience - I have never practised the religion but an ethnically Jewish. As a child I experienced some pretty horrible antisemitism (and quite a bit of xenophobia too with a French mother which is by the by in this context) and quite a bit of casual antisemitism as an adult. It was directed at me simply for existing as someone with Jewish ethnicity, nothing to do with religion. It's my genetics. At its most extreme - Nazis didn't care if you were religious - all you needed was Jewish blood, whether through both parents, one parent or a grandparent.

I am not 'pro-Israel' in the way it's thrown around here as some kind of insulting accusation of supporting Netanyahu (I think he's f*cking demented FWIW), I've never been there and never considered it, but by god I will support Israel's right to exist. When you experience antisemitism throughout your life a lot of it is wrapped up in generational trauma too, so there's always this thought at the back of your head that however bad it gets 'at least I can escape to Israel'. Which I know, in the current context of events sounds mad because obviously it's not a safe place to be! Does that make sense?

And to answer your other question - yes, there is a huge amount of conflation, but it's done in quite a subtle, underhand way, e.g. expecting British Jews to answer for, or denounce Israel.

And I will also add, I have been absolutely beside myself about the bloodshed of both Israelis and Palestinians. Genuinely heartbroken. But I am also very (VERY) scared for what this means for British Jews and so my posting on MN reflects that I suppose. It doesn't mean I'm heartless or blind to the suffering in Gaza.

Hamas lied about Israel bombing the hospital and how many died.

What else have they lied about? What evidence is there that Israel destroyed the electric plant that they actually built themselves or poured concrete down water pipes? Where is the evidence of mass torture and rapes of Palestinian women.

I have no doubt innocent people have died in the bombings by Israel, despite the warnings to evacuate, mainly because Hamas use them as shields and actively want as many dead as possible to gain sympathy.

If Israel wanted to commit genocide against the Palestinian people, there would be a lot more that 4000 people dead by now.

I would ask if anybody would seriously be OK with a terrorist governed neighbouring country just a few kms away, who had publicly declared they wanted to wipe you off the map and kill everyone of you, having their own airport!

I’m actually cannot comprehend the hard of thinking people shouting about ‘open air prisons’ and Israel not providing free water, energy and communications to a country that elected a terrorist government that wanted to, and then actually did, tie children together (including an autistic little girl) with metal twine and burn them to death, film themselves spitting on and laughing at the naked dead body of a young woman they had brutalised so badly her vagina was bleeding, kill whole families in their beds.

Thank god Israel had blockaded them up to this point, no?

Thanks so much for your post. It was really helpful in understanding. I think because of the history of the country I live in we do tend to zone in more on the occupation side things and possibly give too little thought to the ethnicity side of things.

@Gruntsandgroans We all need to learn from each other 🙂

If Rishi Sunak told me the sky was blue, I'd still look out a window to check.

I love how they don't explain anything, they just say "trust me bro, it wasn't our allies we're deeply committed to" despite all the other times they've been caught outright lying.

Oh hey, the anti-semitism joker card got played. I guess critical thought naturally has a hatin' on Jews, or something.

All the useful idiots propping up this corrupt regime that just says shit, because racism against Arabs is fine. Even genocide, so long as it's the right side.

You shouldn't be able to go to live in a land just because your ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. If is like a this since my ancestors are the ancient Greeks and Alexander conquered all that countries I can go live there. Or since Greeks were living in all Aegean coast and Istanbul as well black sea I can go and take the land. Anyway now Israel exists and people are born there, they should be able to live in peace. But should be have a 2 states solution for everyone to live in peace and the settlers in Palestinian grounds to stop stealing people's land and homes. People are going to courts to get back their homes but the only court they can go is Israeli court and of course most of the cases they lose. Israel doesn't allow war crimes and such cases to be ruled in any other court so are left with no option to than accept they are losing their land and houses

This ^

‘bleat’. Wow. What a choice of words

It’s sad to see people using the word anti semitism as way to silence genuine concerns about decades long human rights violations of course anyone targeting that community is disgraceful but it’s disingenuous to say most people aren’t talking about the current war crimes happening.

i think in the age of Social media we are seeing things we wouldn’t see before, an Israeli influencer did a mock grwm wearing a hijab and all of the brushes were covered in dust mocking being bombed and the comments are atrocious, “where is your sense of humour?” a lot of rampant Islamophobia around , I’m sure many people are not sure really what to think ,maybe some of the older posters aren’t really seeing that kind of thing?

there’s a lot videos of Jewish members showing immense bravery , at the London March pro Israel marchers were shouting abuse at them calling them scum and in Palestine some confronted the IDF exceptional bravery that could have cost them their life, human decency shouldn’t be a matter of religion

It’s sad to see people using the word anti semitism as way to silence genuine concerns about decades long human rights violations of course anyone targeting that community is disgraceful but it’s disingenuous to say most people aren’t talking about the current war crimes happening.

Some people who may not think they are antisemitic but e.g. question every report from Israel while unconditionally accepting every report from Hamas, or who express horror at is what being done to the Palestinians while ignoring, or even worse, being dismissive about the Hamas terrorist attacks should probably spend some time reflecting how that might come across.

You are generalising. I can speak only for myself and the people around me and when I heard about the hospital I thought there is a high possibility it is Israeli Rocket ( as had warned people they need to move and they are operating in the area, I thought was a misfired israeli Rocket is highly possible). But at the same time I wandered if is Hamas themselves in order to blame Israel and people be more sympathetic with them . And my husband who is Muslim and Moroccan told me is could be possible as a part of Hamas ( not all as he explained to me is complicated and is not just the terrorist part) are terrorists who do not care about human lives is general. Nevertheless I support that Palestine should be an independent country the occupation should end and part of the land unlawfully stolen should be returned to them . Along with Israel they should manage to live in peace