What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?

[flufferknutter]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653619/Israel-reveals-plans-three-phase-war-Gaza-starting-airstrikes-ground-manoeuvres-moving-eradicate-pockets-resistance-ceasing-Israels-responsibility-life-Gaza-Strip.html

I'm sorry for the DM link. I want to know what is meant by Israel 'ceasing responsibility for life' means though. I don't understand.

There are rules of war in Jewish thought. I don’t know what they all are. Two I remember are that firstly there is no concept of allowing conscientious objectors. If you are conscripted you must fight. The second is about tributes: if your city is besieged and the siege makers demand tributes to be put to death as a condition of lifting the siege should you send them out to die? The answer depends on what the demand is. If the siege makers name the tributes, you must send them out to die. If the siege makers demand hostages without identifying them, you must not: you have no authority to choose which innocents someone else will kill.

Could you please point me towards any resources where I can read about it please
If you know of any

@mushti also do you know if Israeli laws in the matter of war are largely based on the Judaic laws of war?

I completely agree that there have been consequences for Israel of its approach to the Palestinians. But most Israeli citizens lead rich productive lives with food, water, jobs, healthcare, and all the benefits an industrialized nation can provide. The life expectancy of an Israeli citizen is 82 years, or thereabouts, a couple of years longer than in the UK.

To the extent that successive governments’ primary responsibilities are to its citizens, I’d say it not going too bad for Israel.

Do you feel that the Palestinian leadership over 75 years has served its people well?

Israel sees itself as bound by the same international laws of war as every other UN state, including the Geneva Conventions. I understand that many people think it is in breach of those laws, but most of those people haven’t actually read the Geneva Conventions, and none of those people have at hand the same information that Israeli military command does when deciding what is a legitimate target and what is a legitimate action. Unfortunately most shouts of “war crimes” are driven by political animus and so very very quickly lose their impact.

I’m fairly sure Jewish precepts are taken into account in decision making both by formal input from Rabbis but also because Judaism is the “background” to most Israeli officers and soldiers lives, in the way Christianity is in the UK.

i don’t have any detailed knowlege of how Jewish law is applied to decision making in the IDF, however.

One should also be aware that Jewish thought is very diverse and many many different strands of Jewish law exist, sometimes with contradictory conclusions. I may not have been clear that what I wrote earlier I learned in an academic discussion many years ago from an “orthodox” source. I don’t think that means that if Hamas besieged a Jewish town and demanded the mayor be sent out for execution that is what would happen.

Do you feel that the Palestinian leadership over 75 years has served its people well?

Yes.

I don’t know. Those are good questions I can’t answer, the answers probably depend on circumstances. What is clear is that Orthodox Judaism your own life is a gift from God and you are under a positive obligation to fight to defend it.

Very very interesting
And very similar to Islam
Also why we have a duty to look after our own bodies and now allow to cause it any harm
Which is why many scholars say tattoos are not allowed

You could start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_warfare

I cant vouch for its accuracy or provenance.

Thanks alot

Are you sure you don’t want to type out
“Do you feel that the Palestinian leadership over 75 years has served its people well?” just one more time?
I am by no means sick to death of it 🤣

(My previous post was sarcasm just to clarify for anyone who thinks I’ve lost the plot)

If the Israeli government and military really operates under those rules of war as described above I’d find that quite worrying. That such religious fundamentalism promotes preemptively killing innocent children and everybody has to respect that because it’s religion.
Hopefully that’s not how they operate.

You answered it already. If anyone disagrees with your answer I'm sure they'll say so.

You answered it already. If anyone disagrees with your answer I'm sure they'll say so

Yeah, I didn’t mean it though. I was just fed up with your broken record act. Look at my post history and you’ll see I don’t think Hamas are a force for good.
The PLO I’m not sure, I was very young in the 90s so can’t remember, but they did at least give peace talks a go which is more than Hamas will ever do.

But none of the Gazans have fairly voted for Hamas. No elections since 2006. 50% of Gazans weren’t even alive then. So they don’t deserve to be punished for Hamas.

I don't think anyone demands respect for any action "because" it's religion. Knowledge is good however, and knowledge of how the "other side" thinks is helpful.

We all judge actions on our own moral scales, which are often different from those of others. Hamas feels justified in killing babies and raping teenage girls at a music festival because their victims are not civilians but "occupiers". We can note that this is what they think without agreeing to that point of view. That's important because it informs us how they are likely to behave in the future.

The official IDF code of ethics is described here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_of_arms

But none of the Gazans have fairly voted for Hamas. No elections since 2006. 50% of Gazans weren’t even alive then. So they don’t deserve to be punished for Hamas

True, Hamas were voted in but they then took control of Gaza by force so I’m not sure they could be described as leaders as such.

I believe the attitude of the IDF is that while Palestinian civilians don't deserve to be punished, Israel is now indifferent to their suffering, for as long as the legitimate goal of destroying Hamas is pursued.

Even though many people felt Israel treated Gaza badly in the past, Israel did provide fuel, electricity and water. Providing those things at the present time will help the enemy, so they have been withdrawn. Israel no longer sees the suffering that will inevitably bring to the innocent residents of Gaza as something it should worry about.

That is very much a predictable consequence of the events of October 7, and therefore one for which Hamas is responsible.

You can’t be surprised though that most independent onlookers are not so indifferent. Nor, I hear, are many Israelis.

Even including Israelis whose families were directly affected by the criminal actions of October 7. What gives Netanyahu the right to be as indifferent to his own people as he is to the Gazan children?

Even though many people felt Israel treated Gaza badly in the past, Israel did provide fuel, electricity and water.

It had to because of the blockade? I’m sure it wouldn’t have bothered otherwise. As you say a lot of Israelis are probably desensitised to the Palestinians predicament - although possibly not all? I read that some don’t agree with their right wing government and there have even been protest marches in the past.
It seems likely the elevation of Hamas over the PLO was a reaction to the failure of the Oslo Accords? That seemed like the closest they ever came to an agreement and when that fell flat things must of seemed bleak.

I'm not at all surprised, for at least two reasons. Firstly independent onlookers don't have skin in this. "So would I if it were your tooth", as they say.

Secondly, "independent" onlookers never really seem to be independent. There is always - always - a "but", in the sense of "Israel has the right to defend itself BUT".

Ultimately the role of the IDF is to defend the citizens of Israel. And as things stand the IDF has bigger guns than the Palestinians. If independent onlookers have a genuine goal to reduce the suffering of the Palestinians living in Gaza that's probably a good starting point for deciding what to do or say.

If Hezbollah gets involved the IDF’s guns won’t be enough. So the IDF is not just callous and sadistic but also deluded. Then the rest of us will have to put ourselves at risk bailing them out. Bailing out the army that is currently slaughtering thousands of innocent children. What a mess.

Secondly, "independent" onlookers never really seem to be independent. There is always - always - a "but", in the sense of "Israel has the right to defend itself BUT".

Well what do you expect them to say? “Israel has the right to defend itself SO bomb away and call the civilian casualties collateral damage?”

I mean..on one had you’re saying Israel has the big guns, Gaza doesn’t stand a chance. Tough.
But on the other hand you’re grumbling that other people are critical. Do you have the courage of your convictions or not?

And as things stand the IDF has bigger guns than the Palestinians. If independent onlookers have a genuine goal to reduce the suffering of the Palestinians living in Gaza that's probably a good starting point for deciding what to do or say

I genuinely am not sure what you’re getting at here.

50% of electricity used in Gaza comes (or came) from a diesel-fired power station fed by fuel from refineries in Haifa. The other 50% was fed from the Israeli national grid and from Egypt. The Palestinian Authority paid the bills.

After the blockade of 2007, diesel fuel was smuggled from Egypt, then in 2013 Egypt shut down the smuggling tunnels. The fuel was then supplied from Qatar and Turkey.

In 2017 power lines from Egypt were shutdown. At that time the only electricity to Gaza was provided from the Israel Electric Corporation. Then at some unspecified time later Israel allowed fuel to be delivered again.

You can read about the Electricity shenanigans between Israel, Hamas, the PA and Egypt here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_electricity_crisis

The water supply story is likely very similar.

The story of the blockade since 2007 and the supply of services to Gaza is complicated. I know it would suit the narrative if it were simply "Israel bad, Palestinians good" but that's now how things go.