Please restore my faith in humanity..Israel?

[Bakensmile]

I don’t view Hamas as humans, they are pure evil.

However I am astonished at the atrocities Israel are committing and getting away with, I want to believe they are good and just defending themselves but it’s getting harder to do that. I have some questions if anyone could answer, I would be grateful. Before this gets deleted as that’s probably inevitable as mumsnet doesn’t like anyone questioning Israel.

Over 1,000 children have been killed since this all began. Why are Palestinian children’s lives not viewed as important as Israelis?

To the people who say Israel need to destroy Hamas. If Hamas had underground tunnels within Israel. Underneath Israeli homes, hospitals. Would you support the dropping of bombs and view the killing of innocent Israeli civilians as collateral damage and an unavoidable tragedy? Or do you think Israel, who has arguably the most efficient intelligence in the world, would find another way to obliterate them?

The UK and US wrongfully invaded Iraq killing thousands of civilians, some members of the army were raping women and in one case burnt a child alive. If at that time, Iraq had decided to bomb the UK killing thousands of civilians as a way to defend themselves, would you also support that?

The most recent tragedy last night at the hospital. Israel immediately took responsibility and were quite proud they had ‘killed terrorists’. They then deleted this tweet and backtracked saying it was Hamas, releasing audio between two members as ‘proof’.

How can they intercept phone calls between terrorists but failed to see the initial attack and massacre of innocent israelis coming? How is this considered as proof? The two people talking could be anyone.

Why would they claim responsibility if it was nothing to do with them?

What are the chances that a rocket misfires and just happens to land on a hospital that was supposed to be keeping hundreds of Palestinians safe?

Agreed

Think Hamas (arguably) underestimated the situation.

Hopefully an agreement will be reached, an immediate ceasefire, releasing of hostages and hopefully calling off of the ground invasion would be very good progress.

Think Hamas (arguably) underestimated the situation.

They're absolute clowns then. They live-streamed themselves brutalising civilians wholesale, how on earth did they think Israel was going to react?

I still think that the attack was as deliberately provocative and publicised as possible in order to provoke a conflict to sour Israeli relations with the rest of the middle east. And it's working a treat. They've managed to cause mass global hatred of Israel after slaughtering over a thousands of it's citizens. That's quite some PR.

From the latest update there is some hope that the following may happen today or at some point.
Aid coming into Gaza, release of some hostages and a ceasefire

Yes, that happened on the 16th October 2023. Quite a turnaround which you might be forgiven for thinking is suspicious and/or evidence of coercion by Hamas.

Indeed, it's been documented in previous years that Hamas routinely abuse the civilian protection given to UNRWA run schools and hospitals.

No chance they've suddenly stopped doing that in 2023. 🤷‍♂️

2012 was a bad year for civil wars.

In 2012, there were six civil wars worldwide. All took place within Muslim countries: Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, Syria and Yemen. Of the nine rebel groups in these conflicts, seven had an Islamist ideology.

Let's take Sudan in 2012.

South Sudan seceded from Sudan on July 9 under the terms of the 2005 Comprehensive Peace Agreement (CPA) that ended Sudan’s 22-year civil war. The split was peaceful but Sudan saw increasing popular unrest and widening armed opposition in the months that followed. In Khartoum, the capital, government authorities pursued familiar repressive tactics including harassing, arresting, detaining, and torturing perceived opponents of the government; censoring media; and banning political parties.
Volatile areas north of the South Sudan border descended into conflict while a peace agreement signed by the government and one rebel group did not end simmering conflict or improve the human rights situation in the western province of Darfur.

Moving forward to Somalia 2021

During a year that marked the 30th anniversary of the collapse of the Somali state, domestic and international attention was focused on plans for the delayed parliamentary and presidential electoral process. Political tensions stalled reform efforts key to advancing human rights in the country, while conflict-related abuses, insecurity, and humanitarian and health crises took a heavy toll on civilians.
All parties to the conflict in Somalia committed violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting to war crimes. The Islamist armed group Al-Shabab conducted indiscriminate and targeted attacks on civilians and forcibly recruited children. Inter-clan intra-security force violence killed, injured, and displaced civilians, as did sporadic military operations against Al-Shabab by Somali government forces, troops from the African Union Mission in Somalia (AMISOM).

Did anyone reading this voice any concerns about the Human Rights abuses that took place/are taking place in these countries - or do you just save your censure for Israel?

Or maybe you think that 'brown people don't matter'?🤔

As this thread indicates we are currently discussing the conflict in Israel and Gaza hence the mentioning of Human rights abuses by Israel.

Secondly you said maybe I think 'brown people don't matter'

What a terrible false accusation to make to clearly deflect from the issue. Especially considering you have no idea what Ethnicity or 'colour' I am

Yes, that's also one of the analysis from Jon B. Alterman, director of the Middle East Program at Center for Strategic and International Studies in a thread I made in the Conflict In The Middle East section.

Amongst other things.

Hamas was too successful for their own good and are unlikely to survive this.

This is why people need to be extremely careful in taking sides. The whole atrocity has been carefully planed (and likely funded by Iran) to destabilise the Middle East.

We need to keep reminding ourselves of the grotesque actions by Hamas which led to this whilst also being concerned about the innocent people in Gaza.

We must never ever allow Antisemitism to be encouraged. Israel needs to be protected and that is the duty of humanity after the millennia of persecution.

I don’t think the world hates Israel. It’s clear there has been a drive in social media (inc MN) to create that illusion. But hopefully people aren’t stupid enough to not see through the constant barrage of propaganda and hatred. It’s pathetic. Under the guise of faux concern the aim is clearly to perpetuate a narrative which prevents peace.

A day or so back it became clear on here that some people thought the only acceptable peace would be if everyone submitted to Islamic control from the River to the Sea. I’m disgusted by those people, they clearly don’t want peace, they clearly will not accept anything else so peace will be impossible.

Or maybe you think that 'brown people don't matter'?🤔

We aren't all white.

do you just save your censure for Israel?

People are allowed to show support without baseless implications it is to do with Israel. I would condemn any government terrorising a group of people in the way the Israeli government have done. There is a reason Gaza is commonly referred to as an open-air prison.

You will find mention of at least some other issues you mentioned on this and other threads, however people don't need to present you with any information regarding their previous interest/involvement in other conflicts. The section is The Conflict in the Middle East

100 % this - I wholeheartedly agree with you. Israel absolutely have to eradicate the terrorists living on their border. Every country would do the same. It's why most Western leaders are standing with Israel as they get it.

Let's remember the scud missiles launched at them in 1991 by Iraq and they did not retaliate. What other country would have shown such restraint?

I doubt that very much.

Islamic countries can't agree among themselves.

Pakistan always wants to fight with India saying Kashmir is theirs. (When people within Pakistan are dying of hunger)

a few more examples —

• fight with hindus ( pak vs india)
• fights with Jews ( palestine vs israel)

fights with christians ( nigeria / egypt / bosnia)

• fights with shias and baha'is ( Iran)
• fights with buddhists ( china / Thailand / Vietnam)
• fights with a animists (Darfur)
• even fights with atheists ( all over the world)
• also fights within the religion eg; if anyone questions or wants to leave islam or marries outside religion.

I found updates referring to aid but not hostages being released or a ceasefire. Great if so. Please could you link us to hostage releases and ceasefire updates?

Let's hope so

@ChickHenLittle "You will find mention of at least some other issues you mentioned on this and other threads, however people don't need to present you with any information regarding their previous interest/involvement in other conflicts. The section is The Conflict in the Middle East"

Why not the principles are the same?

And please don't tell me what I can can't post and where, you don't control this thread.

(Nice cop-out BTW.)

@Jupitersstorm this was on the BBC

Yes, I'd like to see that info as well. Thanks.

That is just words until it happens.

Yes all I was saying was this was the latest update I had read and that there is some hope that maybe it will

@Parkingt111 "As this thread indicates we are currently discussing the conflict in Israel and Gaza hence the mentioning of Human rights abuses by Israel.

Secondly you said maybe I think 'brown people don't matter'

What a terrible false accusation to make to clearly deflect from the issue. Especially considering you have no idea what Ethnicity or 'colour' I am."

I never said "you". I said "anyone".

The fact you have taken it personally says a lot.

Whatever ethnicity or 'colour' you are doesn't affect your thought processes.

Great post @Maatandosiris

This is why people need to be extremely careful in taking sides. The whole atrocity has been carefully planed (and likely funded by Iran) to destabilise the Middle East.

Indeed. This was clear from the outset. Honestly have been staggered by the swift moves and shamefully untruthful reporting in order to reposition Israel as the blood thirsty aggressors in this particular Hamas instigated conflict. Is it because people are so frightened of potential outcomes that they think if they can just shut Israel down as worthy of support then we can avoid an escalation that will impact on their own comfortable lives in The West? If so how can people not see that this is just kicking the can down the road?

Thank you. But no hope of a ceasefire yet as this has not been agreed to as it is highly doubtful that many of these hostages are still alive and those that are may be being held by other groups.

Why couldn't Hamas and other groups release them immediately and at least apologise for what they had done (and accept the inevitable retribution and sanctions) right at the beginning rather than film the atrocities and release the footage which was always going to result in Israel having no choice in my view, to eradicate the perpetual menace on their doorstep?

I haven't, just as posters don't have to justify what they've posted about previously to you.

I don't see any cop out, just deflection, and not from myself.

Regarding hostages.