Please restore my faith in humanity..Israel?

[Bakensmile]

I don’t view Hamas as humans, they are pure evil.

However I am astonished at the atrocities Israel are committing and getting away with, I want to believe they are good and just defending themselves but it’s getting harder to do that. I have some questions if anyone could answer, I would be grateful. Before this gets deleted as that’s probably inevitable as mumsnet doesn’t like anyone questioning Israel.

Over 1,000 children have been killed since this all began. Why are Palestinian children’s lives not viewed as important as Israelis?

To the people who say Israel need to destroy Hamas. If Hamas had underground tunnels within Israel. Underneath Israeli homes, hospitals. Would you support the dropping of bombs and view the killing of innocent Israeli civilians as collateral damage and an unavoidable tragedy? Or do you think Israel, who has arguably the most efficient intelligence in the world, would find another way to obliterate them?

The UK and US wrongfully invaded Iraq killing thousands of civilians, some members of the army were raping women and in one case burnt a child alive. If at that time, Iraq had decided to bomb the UK killing thousands of civilians as a way to defend themselves, would you also support that?

The most recent tragedy last night at the hospital. Israel immediately took responsibility and were quite proud they had ‘killed terrorists’. They then deleted this tweet and backtracked saying it was Hamas, releasing audio between two members as ‘proof’.

How can they intercept phone calls between terrorists but failed to see the initial attack and massacre of innocent israelis coming? How is this considered as proof? The two people talking could be anyone.

Why would they claim responsibility if it was nothing to do with them?

What are the chances that a rocket misfires and just happens to land on a hospital that was supposed to be keeping hundreds of Palestinians safe?

You can't do a proper independent investigation when Hamas is controlling everything.

Exactly. The Israeli army has been given the green light to do whatever it wants. Kill whoever it wants. And if taken to account then every single time the same excuse. Hamas was there so we killed them all

No, it hasn't. If it had a green light to just wipe out the civillian population, it would have done so.
But, yes, hamas cynically and intentionally uses civillian population and infrastucture. They don't care about Palestinian civillian lives, to the point of telling them NOT to evacuate.

Why are posters who don’t support the IDF being questioned about Hamas as if we support them? I've had it myself.
Just as it's the most recent example, what would the meaning of an Hamas saying have to do with @Parkingt111? They don't support Hamas.

Exactly. I have said time and time again that I don't support Hamas. I condemn the action of killing innocent civilians. Yet on here it seems that anyone who points out any wrong doing of the IDF must by default be pro Hamas and thus treated like that.

That is what I'm thinking, I've seen a lot of similar speculation. It wouldn't be okay to openly attack civilian areas, there needs to be a justification in war. "Hamas were hiding there" doesn't require any further proof, and covers any large scale loss of life.
I really don't think Hamas will be in Gaza in large numbers, maybe a few of them, but I doubt they'll be hanging around. I can see them getting out before the ground invasion. Maybe they won't, but I think they'd put self-preservation first and leave civilians to bear the brunt of it.

And what happened when they did evacuate? Israel bombed the safe places in the south and killed alot of them anyway

Yes that's another point. Every time Israel trots off that excuse for killing civilians we are just expected to believe it. No proof, just we think hamas was there so we killed them all and that's that

There's going to be a ground invasion from the north. It's very sad that Hamas dug tunnels but not bomb shelters in the 17 years it ruled but it's still better for the population to evacuate. Hamas is not telling them to stay put out of concern for their safety.

Because you think Hamas DOESN'T operate in civiliian areas intentionally?
In any case you'd never believe any evidence Israel presents.

Yes what Hamas did was wrong. I condemn it. But I see you are choosing to ignore that Israel bombed the exact safe places that it told the civilians to go to in the south. Do you condemn that?

I've had the same myself, I think a lot of posters have. It seems to be if you don't support the IDF, it must be Hamas. Yet it's been said by so many posters that neither are trustworthy and neither have a history of treating Palestinian civilians well. My main concern at the moment is Gaza, with the humanitarian crisis and real-time multiple threats to life (lack of supplies, food and water, medicine, electricity, shelling, etc.), but overall it's the inclement of civilians in general. Whatever happens now, Palestinian and Israeli civilians will be living in fear at the very least, with many likely being hurt or killed in future.

The lack of willingness to believe IDF evidence is their track record of lies. That's why we NEED independent verification. Always. Hamas lie to cover their wrongdoing. The IDF lie to cover their wrongdoing. They have both been publicly outed for doing it. Neither should be trusted on the face of it. It should be IDF present evidence > we wait until evidence is independently examined > we believe it if it is then confirmed.
It took the IDF a year to apologise for the death of Shireen Abu Akleh, and their admission they were responsible was reluctant and very slow to be given.

I would not say condemn as I don't know the full reasons behind it. Maybe there was a Hamas cell about to launch missiles to Israel at that location (given they are still launching them)? I would say concerned rather than condemn and sad about the loss of innocent life.

Also my post had been exactly about Hamas telling civillians not to evacuate. It wasn't because they were concerned about the safety of their own civillians.

Exactly. They very grudgingly accepted it was them and that was after immense international pressure. But ofcourse the arrogance they have, even after they admitted it, they said no case would be opened and they will not charge any soldiers for the murder

Every army lies and obsfucates. Eventually the IDF did admit the killing of Shireen after an investigation. However, they are still more reliable than Hamas who lies as a way of life (they claim they haven't killed any women or children intentionally!!)

I see again 'maybe' Hamas was there. Cheerio, that's ok then, maybe they were there so we will just go ahead and bomb the safe places.

And again no condemnation. It seems the Israeli army are above any sort of condemnation, their people think they can do no wrong.

Finally we have it 'Every army lies' this is War. Things are very dirty. So just because you believe 100% the Israeli army you cannot expect everyone else too. The same people that are breaking international law and committing war crimes. That are actively taking part in collective punishment. That are carpet bombing Gaza. I'm sure you can see why many will be reluctant to believe them in this instance

That kind of comparison really is insulting to Jewish people. Hamas deserve everything that's coming their way, yet you appear to be protecting them by your stubbornness to see only one side of the narrative.

You don't have to "support" Israel. Of course that doesn't mean you support Hamas. But, that said, it's important to be careful to recognise just how evil Hamas is and that they have widespread support in Gaza. Not evil because what they have done to Israelis, by the way, but evil because of what they have done to Palestinians and the disaster they have caused. It's also important to recognise that Palestinians do have agency and while Israel does have culpability in how this whole shitty situation evolved, the Palestinians are not some hapless victims but have made horrendous choices to continue this armed struggle and to support a group which perpetuates it rather than building up their own soceity to show what a future Palestinian state will look like.

I never said I 100% believe the IDF. I believe them more than I believe Hamas though.

Israel is not carpet bombing. That is propaganda.

I am not happy that humanitarian aid hasn't been allowed in but I understand that there are now mechanims in place to make sure that this will not fall into the hands of Hamas so it can actually reach the people who need it (rather than going into the coffers of Hamas as si much aid money has) so I hope that this will start soon.

I've said before that carpet bombing has a specific military meaning and that it doesn't fit with what's happening in Gaza.

But sneaking regardism is a thing. One sign of it is how quickly focus is taken off a terrorist group's atrocities and put on the government. Another is the volume of their comments directed at governments v terrorist groups.

It has been known to find some journalists are sneaking regarders, e.g. Roy Greenslade. Usually only admitted to long, long after the activity of terrorism of the group they secretly favour.

It might be unfair, but anyone who is regarded as one is entirely responsible for changing this perception of themselves. I wish them well in that.

@Parkingt111 "Disgusting to see a strike on a church in Gaza overnight where people where sheltering"

The IDF do not target civilians.

Where you not aware that the missile that was fired at the Al Ahli hospital in Gaza was launched from the churchyard behind the church of St Phillip the Evangelist?
Check Google Maps.

It's not too much of a stretch to think that Hamas had arms secreted in the area.