Please restore my faith in humanity..Israel?

[Bakensmile]

I don’t view Hamas as humans, they are pure evil.

However I am astonished at the atrocities Israel are committing and getting away with, I want to believe they are good and just defending themselves but it’s getting harder to do that. I have some questions if anyone could answer, I would be grateful. Before this gets deleted as that’s probably inevitable as mumsnet doesn’t like anyone questioning Israel.

Over 1,000 children have been killed since this all began. Why are Palestinian children’s lives not viewed as important as Israelis?

To the people who say Israel need to destroy Hamas. If Hamas had underground tunnels within Israel. Underneath Israeli homes, hospitals. Would you support the dropping of bombs and view the killing of innocent Israeli civilians as collateral damage and an unavoidable tragedy? Or do you think Israel, who has arguably the most efficient intelligence in the world, would find another way to obliterate them?

The UK and US wrongfully invaded Iraq killing thousands of civilians, some members of the army were raping women and in one case burnt a child alive. If at that time, Iraq had decided to bomb the UK killing thousands of civilians as a way to defend themselves, would you also support that?

The most recent tragedy last night at the hospital. Israel immediately took responsibility and were quite proud they had ‘killed terrorists’. They then deleted this tweet and backtracked saying it was Hamas, releasing audio between two members as ‘proof’.

How can they intercept phone calls between terrorists but failed to see the initial attack and massacre of innocent israelis coming? How is this considered as proof? The two people talking could be anyone.

Why would they claim responsibility if it was nothing to do with them?

What are the chances that a rocket misfires and just happens to land on a hospital that was supposed to be keeping hundreds of Palestinians safe?

There appears to be a broad consensus that the evidence points to a Hamas rocket

How can this be when the U.S. Experts are thinking it was most likely PIJ?
Where do you see this ‘broad consensus’?

I know what you mean, I see so many appeals and had no idea where I'd be best to donate. I figured Red Cross, as I wouldn't mind the money going to them or their Palestinian or Israeli counterparts. Likewise UNICEF, as they are focusing on the children caught up in the crossfire.
It feels like a drop in the ocean, but I figure if I put even a few pounds in, in good faith, if lots of people do so, it adds up to hopefully provide a significant amount of aid. It's the best I can do since none of us have the power to force a ceasefire.

That struck me as well. The continued bombing of homes in southern Gaza that were supposed to be safe zones.

Oh, and they even bombed the Rafah crossing again after the evacuation order….while crowds were gathered there hoping to cross.

Thank you, last I read there was some suspicion, but this is interesting to read.

@WhiteHorseSpirit @ChickenNugget6
Yes i posted about it earlier today
Evil is not the word
And I don't see any of those posters who were defending Israel and saying how good they were for telling people to move out of harms way, now condemning them for bombing the same safe places they told them to move to.

I saw this too, partly why Egypt was unable to open the border. Confirmed by various sources as well. Despicable behaviour, as I've seen from many charities recently - even wars have rules. Netanyahu would be wise to remember this, although "wise" is never a word I've associated with him. I genuinely don't think the man is completely compos mentis.

There was a video of a doctor in the north who said he was staying with a NICU baby who would definitely not survive outside of am incubator. Good job he stayed. Lots of other babies were taken off though and as a mother that breaks my heart. Their lives were risked for what?

Can you share the link? I watched a very balanced report by channel 4, it discredited the israeli claim of where the terrorists were located based on their reports contradicting themselves and the geo locations not adding up, it also said the voice notes shared by israel appear to be fabricated, the tone dialect and accent is not Palestinian - seems odd to fabricate evidence if you are not guilty? Its not out of character for israel to bomb hospitals and schools so it all just sounds like a cover up.

Formally, it's called the Bias Fallacy. And, yes, it fits here. A good overview: https://byrdnick.com/archives/11072/the-bias-fallacy#:~:text=We%20can%20call%20it%20the,It's%20that%20simple.

What I can see since the kneejerk reaction to the hospital attack is the Backfire Effect where people simply double down. In this case, the belief Israel did it has been doubled down on. Confirmation Bias too.

Even the extent of the damage has altered - from flattened the building to damage in the car park.

As for conclusive proof, at no point have I stated its been proven conclusively one way or the other. I usually respond when I see posts talking as though it has been proven to have been Israel. I will continue to do that.

I pointed out your own words to you yesterday since you'd also quickly gone away with the early reports. 🤷‍♂️

@Bakensmile, if Israel had bombed from above it would have left a crater and there is no crater. Far more likely Hamas launched a rocket and it malfunctioned or worse still they set it off on purpose in the hope Israel would get the blame. Rockets don't leave craters. Hamas still has over 200 hostages. They won't release them. What do you expect Israel to do, just act as if nothing has happened to them. They can't live with the threat of Hamas doing it again so have to try to obliterate Hamas and get their hostages back. Most likely Hamas will kill them. Like it or not Palestinians voted in Hamas and many Palestinians living in Gaza still support them. The only sensible solution for long term peace is to split the country into 2 states, right down the middle splitting Jerusalem in half.

The voice note was overkill. If they hadn't put that out then I think more people would have believed the Israeli version. Here are some reasons why

1. The tone and dialect
2. As said previously Hamas and other groups do not name places but have number or codes they use
3. They also use other modes of contact as they know calls are easily intercepted
4. Israeli intelligence really didnt intercept a single call regarding the attack during what is said to have been a year's worth of planning, but was able to intercept this one within hours?

Nothing has been concluded?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001rh1d

Indeed.

Despite all of this MN ers still know best and believe the lies of Hamas 🙄

You hadn't, actually. If you look back, you'll see I didn't "go away" with them and replied to you to say that I was waiting on evidence and had not implied otherwise in my previous post.

🤷🏽‍♀️

Oh I see you only point out if Israel has been wrongly accused. Hmm.

Who? I don't think many of us fall for the lies of Hamas or the IDF easily. At least. I would hope. Both are proven liars and have been very publicly caught out more than once.

It was a bonfire of posts pointing the finger at Israel the night it happened and still we see plenty talking as though it's been factually established too.

Very valid to respond when I see them given the prevalence in comparison.

Yes because Israel have a squeaky clean past of saying the truth right?

I'm sure you are aware that the same hospital was also targeted a week ago aswell as given orders to evacuate by Israel
See source below from the guardian

Directly after the strike on the hospital, an Israeli member of the governments digital spokesteam did announce they’d done the strike on the hospital at the start, then deleted the post and then said they’d copied a Reuters report, even though no Reuters report existed.

Then after that, their first attempt to say it was Hamas, they posted a fake video that had been filmed 40minutes after the blast as evidence.

I don’t think it’s people having a knee jerk reaction or jumping to a belief based purely on bias. I think that a given the announcements by Israel in the immediate aftermath and then the retractions and editing, it’s reasonable for people to be a bit skeptical.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/18/what-is-israels-narrative-on-the-gaza-hospital-explosion

Yeah, we are all waiting for the investigation by an independent party on the source of the attack on the hospital.

@FebruaryOnMyMind
In regards to my comment on Israel always saying the truth maybe you can comment on the aftermath of the murder of journalist shireen Abu Akleh

Weren't you here the night it happened? It was an absolute shitshow of people believing the first reports without question. Not surprising because most of the mainstream media apparently reported the first thing they heard also, which was the Hamas version of events.

I think it is plausible that it was a misfired rocket . This happens a lot - but usually their weapons aren’t powerful enough to kill so many people. But regardless it is also plausible it was Israel - they after all had told the hospital to evacuate. Either way the truth will out. Human rights watch and amnesty international usually investigate sites and can find evidence of where the weapons were from.

regardless of this attack - what is happening in Gaza is wrong. I’m sick that it is being applauded by the US, the UK , The EU. This is not a defense- it’s an attack on the ordinary people of Gaza. I’m heartened by all the NGO’s response to this, I work in the area and often NGO’s won’t get involved politically as they concentrate on their work. But in this case many NGOs are hopping around pointing out the injustices. The UN , The WHO. Of course some people dismiss them all as anti semitic

Bbc article on the issue for anyone who wants to learn more about it.
I remember being horrified at the time that not only was she killed by Israel, they lied and tried to blame the Palestinians. And not to forget the IDF attacked mourners and the pall bearers at her funeral which resulted in her coffin being dropped

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-62793579.amp