Please restore my faith in humanity..Israel?

[Bakensmile]

I don’t view Hamas as humans, they are pure evil.

However I am astonished at the atrocities Israel are committing and getting away with, I want to believe they are good and just defending themselves but it’s getting harder to do that. I have some questions if anyone could answer, I would be grateful. Before this gets deleted as that’s probably inevitable as mumsnet doesn’t like anyone questioning Israel.

Over 1,000 children have been killed since this all began. Why are Palestinian children’s lives not viewed as important as Israelis?

To the people who say Israel need to destroy Hamas. If Hamas had underground tunnels within Israel. Underneath Israeli homes, hospitals. Would you support the dropping of bombs and view the killing of innocent Israeli civilians as collateral damage and an unavoidable tragedy? Or do you think Israel, who has arguably the most efficient intelligence in the world, would find another way to obliterate them?

The UK and US wrongfully invaded Iraq killing thousands of civilians, some members of the army were raping women and in one case burnt a child alive. If at that time, Iraq had decided to bomb the UK killing thousands of civilians as a way to defend themselves, would you also support that?

The most recent tragedy last night at the hospital. Israel immediately took responsibility and were quite proud they had ‘killed terrorists’. They then deleted this tweet and backtracked saying it was Hamas, releasing audio between two members as ‘proof’.

How can they intercept phone calls between terrorists but failed to see the initial attack and massacre of innocent israelis coming? How is this considered as proof? The two people talking could be anyone.

Why would they claim responsibility if it was nothing to do with them?

What are the chances that a rocket misfires and just happens to land on a hospital that was supposed to be keeping hundreds of Palestinians safe?

What I think it should do is grant Palestinians basic rights and dignity. You can’t cram people up in a cage under blockade for decades and treat them as sub-human. That situation was a pressure cooker which has resulted in devastating consequences for innocent Israelis.

the only way to resolve this long term is through negotiating a just and sustainable peace that takes into account the rights of Palestinians who also deserve to have freedom and the right to self determination.

The above would involve hard compromises which Israel will never make because the sad reality is they don’t want to share the land in a one state solution because they believe they have a divine entitlement to it and they don’t believe in a two state solution either.

Nice try, but, as even this article states “it depends who you ask”

what is agreed on is that the war started when Israel felt under threat regarding Egypts attempts to control shipping going into Israel. Of course this was a mere 20 years after Jews had been slaughtered in their millions, it’s unsurprising that there was a reaction to attempts to cut it off as an island amidst Islamic states.

During this time Israel made massive gains including the Gaza Strip. When Jordan started shelling Israel it broadened its fight to be against Jordan and took East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

so in short Jerusalem took up arms and gained land as Eygpt threatened sea/river access between Israel and the rest of the world and was then attacked by Jordan. It won the land to try and make itself more secure when the holocaust was still fresh in the minds of Jews.

@Pollyputhekettleon

Do you agree with Israel’s current actions against Palestinian civilians? Namely, starving them and withholding water?

That would be assuming all parties wanted to negotiate. I mean parties on the fringe of the divide as well, such as Iran.

Just a question - where are all the Mumsnet threads from last week when a hospital in Israel was directly hit by a rocket from Gaza? Just wanted to see which of the posters cared as much about that so I know who to take seriously and whose opinion I can disregard entirely based on their extreme bias. Thank you!

The article does say that Israel believed it was about to be attacked, so got in first. That doesn't change the fact that Israel moved first, seized a load of territory and hung onto most of it.

The Holocaust was horrific. I understand why it casts a deep shadow over collective memory. But the Arabs weren't responsible. As you must know, the Nazis viewed the Arabs as inferior humanity as well.

That's terrible. How many people were killed?

@OhHelloTheres

Do you think people who are concerned about Palestinian civilians are somehow pro Hamas?

We expect it from Hamas. That’s probably why, no one is surprised they’d do something so despicable after the atrocities they’ve committed.

@NotTerfNorCis
No one. Didn't realise hospitals were fair game as long as no one died. In which case I guess Israel is ok to go forward with their plans to evacuate hospitals in Gaza and then they're legitimate targets? Good to know.

Don't strain yourself with that reach.

@OhHelloTheres

Not you comparing Hamas a terrorist organisation with the IDF and the Israeli Government 🤣

Not sure how you propose the IDF are entitled to break international law and commit cruel evil war crimes ‘because terrorists do’.

@Green777
So as long as their terror is expected it's ok for them to carry on without anyone calling them out on it?

Please don't get me wrong. I'm genuinely heartbroken by what innocent Palestinians are going through. I just wish more people would also try and see it from Israel's PoV where they're under constant threat from everyone around them.

Also, terrorists blow up their own hospital and what's the first thing that happens? A synagogue in Berlin has Molotov cocktails thrown at it. Israelis and Jews are genuinely constantly on edge. It's really, really scary.

@NotTerfNorCis @Green777
I think you both know my only point is that no one gave a shit when a hospital in Israel was targeted, that I was just pointing out the absolute hypocrisy of all of you.

OP - your post is full of disinformation.

Israel did not ‘initially claim responsibility and then delete.’ One Twitter user - Hananya Naftali - who is a pro-Israel social media influencer, posted something stupid and then deleted it.

Pro-Palestine accounts have seized on this and are claiming he works in Netanyahu’s office, and that this was therefore an admission of guilt by the Israeli government.

But this is not true. He does not work for the government. He has no government role. He has access to no more information than the rest of us.

@OhHelloTheres

On the contrary, I think Hamas are despicable and should be punished. Very much so

This situation has been brewing for years, it's has the two things which degrade into war- arguments about territory and religion. We will probably never know the truth of what happened, it will be both sides saying it was their fault not ours. I feel sorrow for all, not for those fighting, but the innocent who get caught in the middle, for all the Palestinain and Jewish women and children who will suffer and die in a war that is totally out of their hands

Plenty of us see your point 👍

But how do you ensure that terrorists aren’t also freely moving about? Terrorists whose aims are to wipe out Israel?

What actually needs to happen is Gaza needs to rid itself of terrorists. Israel then needs to allow more development within Gaza to bolster its infrastructure so it is entirely self sufficient, power plants, desalination plants. The Gaza Strip should cover the area of the kingdom of philistines to give it historical precedence (I think this is about there).

There needs to be mutual agreement, the Arab world needs to accept Israel based on its heritage as the Kingdoms of Israel and Judea. Israel needs to allow Gaza to be more self governing possibly with UN supervision. It needs to elect a moderate government, as does Israel.,

Unfortunately thousands of years of history, of persecution leaves its mark. What is certain is unless there is a massive change in both the attitude towards Israel and a show of trust to Gaza things won’t change. With the presence of jihadist terrorists all of this is impossible.

I just think the whole thing is desperately sad and feel very sorry for all the innocent civilians on both sides. Neither side is “right” but the loss of life is just tragic 😭

@OhHelloTheres In a situation where thousands of people are dying, an attack with no casualties is not going to get much attention.

Hamas rockets are puny compared to Israel's. That's one reason I believe Hamas (or Islamic Jihad) couldn't have been responsible for devastating the hospital in Gaza last night.

@ChickHenLittle said: "Well it was pointless bringing my post up then as I never once said they represent every Israeli. Where did you get that idea?"

Implied in your previous post and quoted below:

"However, this was a video with people saying outright what they believe. If someone (and I know it wouldn't be possible), somehow filmed every Gazan saying they supported Hamas, I wouldn't disbelieve it as it would be there, in front of me."

It's not unreasonable to conclude this. If you meant differently, you should have worded it more carefully.

@ChickHenLittle said: "...there doesn't seem to be any solid proof of Palestinians largely supporting the terrorist cell Hamas. There are also no recent polls."

There have been polls posted from 2021, 2022 and 2023 from three sources, including Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research led by Khalil Shikaki. The most recent poll is Washington Institute from July 2023 and published 10th October 2023

@ChickHenLittle said: "I note that it's not okay to label every Israeli as an extremist (with which I agree - they are not), but it is okay to apply to Palestinians."

I think you will struggle to find any of my posts saying ALL Palestinians support a terrorist group and that ALL Palestinians are extremists.

On the contrary, I state with supporting evidence that not all Palestinians support Hamas. But it is NOT wrong to say that a majority of Palestinians support terrorist groups.

That's a crucial distinction.

Again, if you don't mean me personally, then you should have worded your post better.

@NotTerfNorCis
I'm really not sure why you think you know more about explosives than the experts do? Have you listened to the experts? About the lack of crater etc?

The weaponry experts are back commentating.

If Hamas rockets could kill hundreds of people in one strike, we'd have seen far more carnage in Israel over the years, even with the Iron Dome. It's no coincidence that the rocket attack you mentioned on the Israeli hospital caused almost no damage.