Are parents missing out? MN without children

[Sequinppigeon]

Inspired by another thread, but really not meant with malice... Do you think parents are missing out by having children?

Do they remove themselves from
opportunities or experiences for example?

Although they experienced child free life before having them, one you have them you don't get childfree life again. Especially not initially, and you're always a parent.

Can they really know what it would be like to have children and therefore what they are committing themselves to?

Just wondering how child free people feel as a counter to this well worn idea that we are some how missing out or lacking.

However, we do gain in other ways (which I know gets shouted down on this board, so I won't bother detailing, even if I do think it's a balanced view from both angles). But I guess, the way I look at it, is if children didn't make a lot of people happier overall, no one would have more than one child, learning the mistake, so to speak, the first time

Well that's lovely for you that you regard DC as a gain. Those of us childfree from choice have decided that children or DGC wouldn't be a gain in our lives and have structured them accordingly.

And the reason it gets shouted down, as you put it, is because parents keep coming on here and trying to tell us where we're wrong and how meaningless and bitter our lives are. It is, after all the board for people who don't have children can express their opinions, and it's IMO it's rather rude to call that 'shouting down.' IMO people CF people shout because some parents aren't listening. Prime example being this thread.

When parents talk on here about how brilliant it is to have kids, they also seem to forget that this board includes women who wanted to have children but couldn’t.

So they’re being very insensitive.

They can simply just adopt to get that, obviously 🥰

You really think adopting a child is simple and a case of “just doing it”?

But I guess, the way I look at it, is if children didn't make a lot of people happier overall, no one would have more than one child, learning the mistake, so to speak, the first time

I'm sure all of the children who are being abused and are second children or more will be so pleased to know that their parents are happier overall for having then

Certainly as the youngest of two who grew up in an abusive household I am overjoyed to learn my parents only had me because it would make them happier...

I think that was intended to be sarcasm…

Thanks @fitzwilliamdarcy I thought the emoji would absolutely confirm that!

I wasn’t certain at first but I think the cringey 🥰 clinched it.

Yeah. DB (second child) who as a tiny baby DGM had to take away from DB because he wouldn't stop screaming and DGM was actually afraid of what DM might do to him might laugh at that. Bitterly, given that they never bonded at all and DM seemed to actively dislike him.

And motherhood sure didn't seem to make my DM happier overall. When we were out of sight and not making any emotional demands it did, anyway.

DB (second child) who as a tiny baby DGM had to take away from DB

Take away from DM, I meant.

@Sauerkrautsandwich sorry 😳

@KimberleyClark absolutely no problem. It actually shows how often is that trotted out that people don't consider it satire anymore!

Please find the part in anything I've written where I'm telling you how to live your life.

If someone expresses an opinion or choice different to you, do you consider yourself "told how to live your life." It's so odd. You are telling me how to live my life then. How dare you, I guess??

You've failed to ever provide one example of this actually happening, despite aggressively telling us all how much this happens.

You define anyone who has perfectly valid choices, but aren't identical to yours as telling you that you're doing life wrong. An opinion isn't an instruction.

I think this definitely happens.

I also think it depends on the thread, as I think it less likely that someone who wanted children would be starting this thread.

This is the board for childfree by choice, childfree not by choice and childless posters

The childfree by choice posters are generally incredibly respectful and sensitive of those who wanted children but couldn't have them

A poster coming on pontificating about the sheer joy a child brings, rather less so

This is the board for childfree by choice, childfree not by choice and childless posters

Essentially, but the correct version is what MN puts at the top of every single page, to remind posters to be respectful, but equally to remind that anyone is welcome:

This board is primarily for MNers without children - others are welcome to post but please be respectful

The childfree by choice posters are generally incredibly respectful

Generally, definitely. The sad thing is that a tiny few, who are so prominent and so aggressive that they become the only voices anyone sees. It does a huge volume of people a disservice. I've read some really insightful and thought provoking debates started...but it just trails off into the same people shouting the same thing.

and sensitive of those who wanted children but couldn't have them

It was this board where I saw someone calling children "crotch goblins" (which is grim, but creative I suppose) and another where a poster was having a termination of pregnancy and the way she was joyfully rephrasing the procedure (I'm not going to repeat what she called it, as I believe it would be very triggering, I was horrified and I subsequently saw it was removed). I've seen many threads eg "what are you going to buy and lavish on yourself today after your nice lie in because you were clever enough not have those irksome drains on your resources called kids". Don't get me wrong, I'd love a lie in. And more cash. But I've seen these kind of threads several times.

A poster coming on pontificating about the sheer joy a child brings, rather less so

I very much agree with this. I think there is zero point/purpose to solely stating "kids are awesome" on this board. I think the problem is when people don't say anything of the sort, in fact, are quite "warts and all" about how kids have taken their freedom, money, sleep etc but they balance this with what they feel the benefits are...that they are attacked for sharing that. Has anyone on this thread pontificated on the sheer joy a child brings? I see a few saying taking everything into account, they are pleased they have them, and a few saying it's a hard slog and maybe they wouldn't if they knew then what they know now.

I think all these views are valid. I think childfree by choice people do get a raw deal at times, because there is a societal prejudice of almost "you don't want kids? what's wrong with you?" and it's threads like these where those views can be challenged, and work towards a vital shift in the mindset of the masses. But if all that ever happens, every single time, is a few people attacking and accusing anyone simply sharing opinions/life experiences and trying to converse, then the conversations will never happen.

@WillYouPutYourCoatOn Please get this. I have no wish at all to engage with you and any points you have to make and I'm not going to. If you don't like how people post on here there's a very simple answer that's wholly in your hands to deal with.

I respect that. I wasn't engaging with you, you had quoted me. I find the points raised by most posters helpful, insightful and showing views that I believe are crucial to women having healthy conversations. Given the pressures in society to have children and be subsequently thrilled that you have achieved your supposed only "life goal', the fact that a woman can ask "are you really that happy though?" and another feel it's finally ok to say out loud: "actually, it's not all it's cracked up to be, don't be pressured like I was" is so important.

It does, however take a little bit of work on your part to not repeatedly quote my text, make accusations yet simultaneously refuse to explain how someone sharing an opinion or their personal life experience, is telling you that you are "doing life wrong" and "telling you how to live your life."

If you didn't keep accusing people of the same offensive thing (not just me), whilst simultaneously refusing to address any basis of your accusations then perhaps the thread might move forwards. I am perfectly happy not to converse with you. People tend not to be repeatedly accused of offensive things and not call it out though.

If you don't like that, as you say...there's a very simple answer that's wholly in your hands to deal with.

You know what, I was going to type out a full response but I think if you dont get it you don't get it and there's no point

What I will say is there is incredible ingrained mysoginy in using the following words to describe women with strong (and societally different opinions)

Aggressive
Shouting
Attacking
Accusing

But honestly most of the problems you quote are caused by parents detailing conversations or objecting to perfectly reasonable things (like conversations about what you are doing with your day)

But like I say if you don't get it you don't get it. But if you think you aren't part of the problem here you are labouring under a misapprehension. And I say that without emotions, never mind shouting etc

I think the problem is when people don't say anything of the sort, in fact, are quite "warts and all" about how kids have taken their freedom, money, sleep etc but they balance this with what they feel the benefits are...that they are attacked for sharing that.

But how is that relevant to a board for women without kids?

Well quite

Some people seem to think this board should be used as a giant thought experiment to debate whether or not having children in the right thing to do, but ultimately the focus be on children

And people discussing their day to day lives and realities of not having children are told to pipe down and stop responding on the board meant for them

Some posters talk a lot about respect, but what they mean is respect for parents whilst talking disparagingly on the childfree board about and to childfree posters

It happens time and again and people being adamant that our ability to recognise pattern of behaviour is us being "aggressive" etc is just tiring and mimics much of what I see as a disabled mixed race poster when people call out ableist or racist comments.

It's disgusting behaviour wrapped under a banner of being the reasonable ones who need to educate the emotional weaker mixed people. When it sounds like internalised misogyny mixed with the othering of a smaller section of society it is, no matter how much they try to convince us its just "thought provoking" conversations about the choice around having children that the pesky childfree should just pipe down in and listen to the real adults at the table tell them how it is.

I think it's rather patronising, tbh, to essentially non respond under the guise "you just don't get it."

I do "get it" but you (I presume) don't like my interpretation.

I don't see most of the problems as parents objecting to daily conversation. It will be something usually pretty obvious as to why it's objectionable. If you do, fair enough, it's a difference in opinion. Perhaps it's something I should look at more closely and reflect on.

There was definitely an initial indignance from parent posters on early threads. But this is less frequent now. I don't deny it still exists, but in lesser form. This is the shift in mindset I was referring too.

And if someone is literally accusing someone of something, that is the correct word to use. That's not misogynistic at all. You are not accusing. Nor being aggressive.

I appreciate your posts, I read the board often, as I help women in all walks of life in my job. I think often, with some posters, there is a confusion that people can't accept their choices and opinions, when really it's not those things that are in question at all, it's not actually an objection to the topic at all, it's more so that, you simply can't talk to people like that, it's so impolite, and that's where the objection comes from.

I think it's patronising to keep informing childfree posters of the joys of being a parent

Or the many posters on this board who have spoken about being from abusive homes being told that parents must be happy being parents if they go on to have a second child. That ones both patronising and offensive.

Like I said, if you don't get it you don't get it and I only have so much time and energy to respond

Please show me where I am informing you of the joys of being a parent.

Again, I do get it. You are just telling me I don't. That's not the same thing.

That seems to be an underlying tone when anything is asked. A refusal to answer, or "you don't get it."

Because childfree women don't owe you an education

We don't have to prove it, repeatedly and endlessly to a multitude of posters who will then pick apart our every response and try to justify why we are wrong

I see it when people speak up about racism. I see it when people speak up about ableism. I see it when people speak up about ageism. I see it when people speak up about mysoginy.

You don't see it, clearly, or you wouldn't be repeating the behaviour. Therefore you don't get it. And I have no mind to educate you. Mostly because in terms of skill vs will I'm pretty convinced this is a will issue.

Please show me where I am informing you of the joys of being a parent.

Please show me where I said you did this?