Are parents missing out? MN without children

[Sequinppigeon]

Inspired by another thread, but really not meant with malice... Do you think parents are missing out by having children?

Do they remove themselves from
opportunities or experiences for example?

Although they experienced child free life before having them, one you have them you don't get childfree life again. Especially not initially, and you're always a parent.

Can they really know what it would be like to have children and therefore what they are committing themselves to?

Just wondering how child free people feel as a counter to this well worn idea that we are some how missing out or lacking.

Where did someone tell you that your interests are meaningless?

Read the thread

I'd like to know the logic process behind that.

Hey if you have logic which says you can post prolifically on a subject whilst also maintaining you are indifferent to it then you do you

I won't be replying to you again, MN has already asked the thread to get back on track, if you aren't going to let that happen I won't encourage you

I think parents need to be more careful about openly broadcasting that they regret having their child. I know adults who were very loved by their parents, but picked up on the fact that they did majorly disadvantage them and as a result they have significant confidence and self-worth issues.
Super taboo to say this, but a parent openly saying they regret having their child needs to grow some resilience and learn to put their child before their need to have every single emotion of theirs validated.

But anyway. As a parent, I would say that yes I was shocked and not fully prepared for the lack of freedom you have with young babies. Life with a child has huge highs and some lows, but overall before having my child I was generally more "low" all the time, and as a mother I feel more joyful, motivated and satisfied. On balance I think this is more valuable than the experiences I am missing out on. This is just my personal perspective.

Read the thread

I have. No one said that to you, which is why I asked you to demonstrate this.

Much like no one told the other person "you are doing your life wrong" but she kept announcing "look at everyone telling me how wrong I am" and was asked to explain why she kept insisting this when posters were saying "I have zero issue with your choices"

It seems anything can be made up, to shout at people, and if you question this, it's all deflection, changing the subject or "I'm not responding cant actually answer "

The board asks for respect. And that works both ways.

Has somebody said this on this thread?

Mumsnet have come on to this thread to ask that it gets back on topic, yet here you are, still replying to every post which has taken issue with your trying to argue semantics to justify why you feel this space should be for everyone. Please respect Mumsnet, even if you don’t respect the posters who worked hard to have this little corner of the discussion forum set up, and do as they have asked, instead of continuing this hectoring crusade. Please.

Honestly, in the absence of an 'ignore' button it's best to just ignore certain posters yourself. We're not going to get anywhere, and it's better for your blood pressure.

It's quite astonishing. Yet another deflection.

It's not answering every post. It's repeatedly asking the same question. If it wasn't deliberately avoided under endless excuses or deflection etc, then it would need to be continually asked. And it's actually quite serious.

If someone is going to lie that I (and many others) have said something that nobody has, in fact, quite the opposite, yet continue to make aggressive and accusatory statements about me/others, I'd like them to address why they did so. I'm one of the "accused." And that's not ok to just make things up at your will and accuse people of nasty things because you feel like it, irrespective of what they've actually said.

It's not "please be respectful on this board, unless you have decided you're more entitled to be here above others, then you can be as rude as you like."

As every thread on this board, it's interesting, intelligent discussion....until the "and why are you on my board," appears. Arguing, policing, accusing. That's what derails the thread. Every, single, time.

I think MNHQ do a great job actually, they support both views. And that's what it should be.

If anyone’s deflecting it’s you. You yourself said you were arguing about terminology. I asked you why you cannot accept and respect the definition of childfree as it applies to this board ie people who are not parents. Now you’ve come back saying basically that it’s not about terminology, that other people apart from actual non parents should have the right to post here. If they can do so respectfully without diminishing the lived experiences of non parents that’s fine. But the posters who abide by that are a minority sadly. And yes, people ask all the time what people without children are doing on MUMsnet. Yet seemingly we are not allowed to ask what people with children are doing on a very small part of mumsnet which was set up for non parents.

I do think you are being deliberately goady now to be honest.

There is a poster who has posted here under various names that childfree people are deliberately misunderstanding posters saying things about them, lying about things that have been said, that parents don't care about whether they are childfree or not and it's all just in our heads. They even went off and made a thread on aibu about it.

Its all feeling very familiar at this point. And I think unfortunately the only thing to do is ignore them and potentially accept the demise of the thread. I'm pretty sure there are a core group of bitter posters from the original request thread who won't be happy until this topic is removed either because they have made it too contentious, or because no one uses it any more because they have made it unusable.

Well, if some parents want to make the board unusable they’re going the right way about it.

No, that's not what I've said at all, so if that's what's coming across, I will clarify.

Do I accept and respect one definition of CF as applied to some posters on this thread? Yes.

Do I accept and respect another definition of CF as applied to other posters on this thread? Yes.

Do I think only one definition can exist? No I believe it is subjective to the person.

Do I think people falling under one definition are respectful that those under another definition rightfully exist, but not vice versa? Yes.

Now you’ve come back saying basically that it’s not about terminology, that other people apart from actual non parents should have the right to post here. No, that's exactly about terminology, because the whole reason some people post, is because they have spent perhaps the first 40yrs of their life not planning to have children, end up through whatever means with a child, and then feel they are quite right to consider themselves the term "child free" for 40yrs and can add value to a conversation on such.

If they can do so respectfully without diminishing the lived experiences of non parents that’s fine Absolutely. This has kind of been my whole point. This (and nearly every other derailment) is due to a small minority of posters telling people they shouldn't be posting because they don't conform to their sole views. Which of course, they can not dictate. Further to this, accusation of being attacked, was added, and when this was repeatedly queried, because no such attack had been made, silence. It was not the parents (who have considered themselves CF before children) being disrespectful, it was the mere presence of them that caused them to be attacked and that's not ok. If someone is polite, engaging in discussion, and someone else becomes aggressive towards them, then that's the person who needs to be accountable.

I appreciate everything you're saying. I don't find it rude, or dismissive, because it's not, and it would be wrong (and tedious) for me to claim it was, for personal gain. I think moving forwards takes discussion and not just shouting down.

I think MNHQ do a great job of finding a balance, they aren't excluding people who feel they have something of value to contribute, whilst providing a space for this topic. And I think that's the best solution.

Absolutely

I think the only way to approach it is to firmly ignore the people with an obvious agenda and just quote and talk between ourselves. I think it's like bullies, where if they get ignored consistently they will eventually get bored and wander off

That's my hope anyway. Its easier said that done though because the conversation normally starts off semi reasonable and only becomes increasingly goady the more people respond to them so its hard to find the balance of where to cut off the conversation. Certainly I didn't find the right balance on this one

I have no idea what "original request thread" is, so this isn't me.

Again. With the "bitter." Why? Having explained more times than should be required for this to be apparent, "I am indifferent", could you explain how this is bitter?

Hi, everyone. We're dropping in again because the thread is still being derailed. We don't think it was ever intended as a debate about the definition of terms! To be frank, in the context of this board, we don't think it's that helpful to debate what childfree means. Yes, it means different things in different circumstances but it's fair to say that on THIS board it generally means people who do not have children and we're going to assume attempts to debate this are a deliberate derailment.

Please can we get this back on track now? If you don't feel you can do that, it's probably best to take a step back. Thanks, MNHQ.

Thanks @BeckyAMumsnet.

Thank you MNHQ.

Thank you so much @BeckyAMumsnet.

I haven’t read the whole thread, sorry, but one thing has leapt out at me over the last few years. I get involved a bit (not loads, to be fair) in the occasional bit of campaigning and community action. Things like local meetings about changes that might affect the area- they were planning to send HS2 through us, for example, and there would have been a huge impact while the work was being done and permanently. And at any of these meetings, it is always the same. There are huge numbers of retired people there, and a small number of 20-somethings, and me and my husband. We are almost always the only ones between the ages of about 30 and 60. I’m also often asked by friends what I’m involved in, and they say things like, oh it’s so important and great that you’re doing something about it. And it’s obviously because they’re too busy juggling work and family and just don’t have time, and I totally get that. But this stuff IS important. The community loses out by having no engagement from an entire generation or two generations. And they will lose out because they have no voice and no influence.

I was really excited when this board was set up. Loved mn and thought it would be a good place to discuss something relatively specific and sometimes emotionally very hard.

It isn't a safe space for that and so I won't be posting or reading.

I am sorry for others who had the same hopes and expectations as me and are left feeling a bit empty by all this.

Because of the insensitive comments from some parents?

I am one of those people who feel I was born to be a mum but it never happened for reasons social and medical. I have a lovely life with my husband but I will always wish there had been kids too.

So I get some of the comments on the other board. But I also pity the smug folk especially because they have never had to/been able to think about another perspective.

Yes I have gained in material ways from not having kids. But what I have also gained:

• a different perspective on life ie you don't always get what you want so very badly and you can survive that (I sometimes thought I couldn't)
• community with wider society, a different perspective. I was single for a long time. I still think that single people have better connections within and across networks because they need them more but also have time to invest and they have a richer perspective and enrich others' lives (including families) because of that position and perspective. Since I met my husband (and especially since we married) I've felt less connected because we're more of a contained unit and I don't depend on others socially as much. But we still connect across different communities and perspectives more than those with kids. Because of time but also because we are a smaller unit. And we bring lots of people together, either physically or just through exchanging views and experiences of ourselves and others - the traditional and the less traditional. Families can do that but it's less common outside their own family/school/kids community bubble.
• in terms of perspective, being a woman without children has really opened my eyes to the patriarchal society that has been constructed over centuries and that we still live in. I won't go into details but it really shows what value we place on women and sometimes these days I even feel slightly sorry for women whose only value to society (or themselves) is in their status as a provider of children, especially if they can't see that.
• it's made me stronger and more mature as a person. See my comment above about not being sure I'd survive it.

So I'd change all the above in a flash for a child (or more - I wanted 3) but I'd still say it gives me things I wouldn't otherwise have, beyond the purely material/ability to sleep. I just wish I was respected for these things instead of pitied.

This is a really interesting and thoughtful post @BoofyBoo

I think I am unlikely to have children myself, and my partner and I are both only children so I worry a lot about loneliness and how we will ever build that 'family' feeling or sense of belonging. Would you mind talking a little more about how you have built community with wider society?

Thank you.

(Sorry I realise I have posted using an old username as am on a different device and can't see how to change, it is me!).

@Strawberriesandpears thanks, and good luck to you and your partner.

I think a lot of what I meant was organic, as in we're less in a bubble and more exposed (the smaller the unit, the more that's the case) and open to others and their experiences.

But in terms of actual connections, they vary:

We met through a local group and have friends in common through that who live in the area. In the earlier days of our relationship as often volunteered as there was a lot going on in our local community, so we met people that way. Some friendships are stronger than others, not all 'call in the middle of the night' ones, but they make us feel more connected to the wider community, and we meet people through those people and through our local church we sometimes go to as well (but I wouldn't be happy in most church settings these days as they tend to be parent-centric).
Also, I guess we met and married late so we've picked up people along the way and a couple of times a year we'll have dinners or parties and the same people will be there and they now know each other a bit and refer to each other. The majority don't have kids.
My husband also performs with a local theatre company so we know people through there and have taken friends and family to see his plays and had dinner with various groups of them beforehand - again they all tend to remember each other, so it creates networks. I have heard am dram is a good way to meet people without kids and think it's probably true.
We also travel occasionally to visit good friends with kids (including godchildren) and of course our own families (I have a sister who has two children, not been easy for me though I love them, and my parents treat us both equally thankfully). And vice versa. We live in London so we're lucky that a lot of our single friends in particular have stayed here and many people pass through including friends from abroad.
Work colleagues too - I've got to know a lot of my friends through different jobs and most of them don't have children. There are tons of folk with kids too but somehow the rest of us find each other!
We've also been very lucky with neighbours and some of them look after our cat whilst we're away and vice versa - their children adore our cat so that's been very sweet. We had a nice community in the block of flats we used to live in and have kept in touch with some of them.
Finally I have joined a national group for childless not by choice women and there is a local coffee group that meets once a month which has been great, but it depends on your situation as to whether that would appeal (Gateway Women).
Neither of us is massively outgoing, but I think we both probably just enjoy creating networks and being part of a community. We don't always throw ourselves in completely, we just do what works for us and try to support others I suppose hoping for something in return, whatever that is, but mainly just the sense of connection and that we're all in this together. The above probably sounds much more deliberate than it is, it has been interesting for me to write it all down in one place as it's been quite organic over many years. I am sure a lot of it sounds pretty obvious to you and anyone else reading!
I don't think most of them are exclusive to those without children either, I just think that without children you have more space to build different types of connection and draw more different kinds of people to you. Obviously you miss out on the school gate and NCT type friendships but there are plenty other sorts.
I also have no idea how many of these people would step in if we were frail or infirm but I think the more connections of all kinds that you have, the more chance you have of support and finding things/groups that work for you. My hope is that more and more people will form communities of support as more of us age without children and there are people who are quite active in research and initiatives in this area (look up AWOC).

Hope the above helps in some way! Let me know if you have any thoughts as interested to hear.

Your assuming you'll have grandchildren.